X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 14:54:06 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail-yx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.213.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.4c2a) with ESMTPS id 4824630 for lml@lancaironline.net; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:01:39 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.213.180; envelope-from=afm528@gmail.com Received: by yxd30 with SMTP id 30so2049662yxd.25 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:01:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Hw8xL0NBDkPabbkQ3BcsjgPclCU9Fk45/PoKY3x0RQ+9Ydgj4J2cruSZOG9Dgu3GRr e6sQgfRzA2GdQpvETQLvoDYvCcv1s/gtUea4NDjVblZPrhyJPcdJXJTlkhxhplLixAYw S9e8c5uKliWqEWWXHDBcNZOtQErsCHcyUBQJs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.112.3 with SMTP id p3mr4619787ybm.227.1295884863092; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.236.105.235 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:01:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:01:03 -0800 X-Original-Message-ID: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Lithium Batteries From: Michael McMahon X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517574602ef3a5a049a99b4b4 --001517574602ef3a5a049a99b4b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I never claimed to be an expert, and I've never advocated that people start using these batteries; I said I was interested in them and had been doing a lot of research. Tostino is far from the only person reporting that he does not balance his cells. The SECOND link in my post is a thread with several hundred posts o= n designing, building, and testing cells. Have any of the naysayers read the thread, in depth, or done similar research? As I've written before, I've been researching this for a long time, I'm not relying on one post from one guy who did a few tests, it was just the first I pulled up of many, many similar reports. I also have read, but won't bother to post 15 links, that deep discharging, such as Hamid had done, is different than the minimal discharge we would expect from an engine start. The small discharge contributes to less need to balance the cells. Quite different from the total-loss system in an RC or solar-powered environment. I'm an experimenter. I can't just sit on the sidelines and wait for "someone else" to do the research, testing and development, then jump on th= e bandwagon. That's why I'm building an experimental aircraft. I thought this forum would be a good place to discuss development and testing of new systems rather than quickly declare it "too risky" for intelligent discussion. Michael On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 4:57 AM, wrote: > The two worst places to have a fire...boat and plane. A IVP was seriously > damaged due to a battery fire. Risk v. Benefit. > > Jeff > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jan 22, 2011, at 6:32 AM, Michael McMahon wrote: > > It seems there may be some discrepancies between theoretical extremes and > real-world experience. Here's a link to one of the forums on which peopl= e > are reporting on their results (highlights mine): > >> Re: building my own lifepo4 batt question. >> >> [image: New post]by >> *tostino >> * =BB Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:05 am >> By doing discharges on the bench with the cells exposed, and being able = to >> tell that each string holds almost exactly the same voltage all the way >> through the discharge, I am pretty sure I can tell they are not horribly= out >> of balance. I did IR matching of the cells, but no capacity matching whe= n >> I built the pack, so there is a little room for deviation i'm sure, but = it >> is not much I assure you, or I would have a really out of balance pack a= t >> this point. I did a few 100% dod cycles on the bench to test and see how >> out of balance they got... It went right down to 3.2v/cell (resting) >> (2.9v under load) without them going out of balance at all, and they the= n >> charged right back up to full and stayed balanced. >> >> You seem so certain that i'll kill my cells if I didn't have a cell leve= l >> LVC (with out the buffer space I provide it). My LVC is set to 46v with = a >> 14s pack. That means that it is 3.28v/cell. The resting voltage for each >> cell when I stop the discharge is about 3.5v. I would have killed them b= y >> now if it were going to happen, and they would have gone out of balancen= ow if that were going to happen too. >> > > I found this thread to be informative and a good place to start on studyi= ng > people's actual experiences building and using these batteries: > > http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3D2&t=3D2633&start=3D705= &hilit=3Dthyristor > > Michael > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Hamid Wasti < > hwasti@lm50.com> wrote: > >> Michael McMahon wrote: >> >>> >>> I do not want to start an argument, but it is frustrating for people t= o >>> say they don't like ideas based on out-of-date or incomplete data. >>> >>> It is even more frustrating when people proposed ideas based on >> incomplete data. Your "EV guru" friends are correct, you do not HAVE to >> cell balance a pack, but only as long as you are willing to live with >> the limitations imposed by that choice. Do you know what those >> limitations are? >> >> When you have a number of cells of any chemistry in series in a battery >> pack, they all receive exactly the same current when charging. Some >> cells are a little more efficient than others so they get fully charged >> before their colleagues in the string. If at that point they continue to >> receive charging current, they will over-charge. Some chemistries are >> able to handle this over-charging. Other chemistries like LiPo are very >> intolerant of this over charging and quite literally blow up. Cell >> balancing attempts to make sure that the charge on each of the cells in >> the string is identical so they all get fully charged at the same time, >> maximizing the charge that the pack can hold. That maximum number is the >> one everyone throws around and that is the number you will expect to get >> from your battery pack. >> >> As I mentioned, you do not HAVE to cell balance. For a LiPo or LiFe >> pack, you can just monitor the voltage on each individual cell and stop >> charging when one of the cells gets fully charged. Over time, the >> discrepancy in th charge state between the most efficient and the least >> efficient cell in the string will keep increasing, with the usable >> capacity of the entire pack being controlled by the charge in the least >> efficient cell. Taking this to the theoretical extreme, at some point >> the pack will not be able to deliver any energy because one cell will be >> fully charged and another will be fully discharged. In real life, you >> will declare the pack useless and stop using it before you get to that >> point. If you are willing to live with this diminishing capacity, then >> cell balancing is indeed not required. Just remember that your pack is >> no longer going to have the same capacity as the pack that has cell >> balancing and you must design the rest of your system to account for tha= t. >> >> Quoting the late Paul Harvey: Now you know the rest of the story. >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Hamid >> >> >> >> -- >> For archives and unsub >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html >> > > --001517574602ef3a5a049a99b4b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I never claimed to be an expert, and I've never advocated that people= =20 start using these batteries; I said I was interested in them and had been d= oing a lot of=20 research.

Tostino is far from the only person reporting that he does= not balance his cells.=A0 The SECOND link in my post is a thread with seve= ral hundred posts on designing, building, and testing cells.=A0 Have any of= the naysayers read the thread, in depth, or done similar research?=A0 As I= 've written before, I've been researching this for a long time, I&#= 39;m not relying on one post from one guy who did a few tests, it was just = the first I pulled up of many, many similar reports.

I also have read, but won't bother to post 15 links, that deep disc= harging, such as Hamid had done, is different than the minimal discharge we= would expect from an engine start.=A0 The small discharge contributes to l= ess need to balance the cells.=A0 Quite different from the total-loss syste= m in an RC or solar-powered environment.

I'm an experimenter.=A0 I can't just sit on the sidelines and = wait for "someone else" to do the=20 research, testing and development, then jump on the bandwagon.=A0 That'= s why I'm building an experimental aircraft.=A0 I thought this forum wo= uld be a good place to discuss development and testing of new systems rathe= r than quickly declare it "too risky" for intelligent discussion.=

Michael


On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 4= :57 AM, <vtailje= ff@aol.com> wrote:
The two worst places to have a fire...boat an= d plane. A IVP was seriously damaged due to a battery fire. Risk v. Benefit= .=A0

Jeff

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 22, 2011, at 6:32 AM, Michael McMah= on <afm528@gmail.c= om> wrote:

It= seems there may be some discrepancies between theoretical extremes and rea= l-world experience.=A0 Here's a link to one of the forums on which peop= le are reporting on their results (highlights mine):

Re: building my own lifepo4<= /span> batt question.

3D"Newby tostino =BB Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:05 am

=20
By doing discharges on the bench with the cells=20 exposed, and being able to tell that each string holds almost exactly=20 the same voltage all the way through the discharge, I am pretty sure I=20 can tell they are not horribly out of balance. I did IR matching of the cells, but no capacity matching when I built=20 the pack, so there is a little room for deviation i'm sure, but it is= =20 not much I assure you, or I would have a really out of balance= pack at this point. = I did a few 100% dod cycles on the bench to test and see how out of = balance they got... It went right do= wn to 3.2v/cell (resting) (2.9v under load) without them going out of balance at all, and they then charg= ed right back up to full and stayed balanced.

You seem so certain that i'll kill my cells if I didn't have a cell le= vel=20 LVC (with out the buffer space I provide it). My LVC is set to 46v with a 14s pack. That means that it is 3.28v/cell. The resting voltage for each cell when I stop the discharge is about 3.5v. I would have killed them by now if it were going to happen, and they would have gone out of balance= now if that were goin= g to happen too.

I found this thread to be informative and a good place to start on studying= people's actual experiences building and using these batteries:=A0 http://endless-sphere.com/forum= s/viewtopic.php?f=3D2&t=3D2633&start=3D705&hilit=3Dthyristor
On Fri, Jan= 21, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Hamid Wasti <hwasti@lm50.com> wrote:
Michael McMahon wrote:

I do not want to start an argument, =A0but it is frustrating for people to = say they don't like ideas based on out-of-date or incomplete data.

It is even more frustrating when people proposed ideas based on
incomplete data. Your "EV guru" friends are correct, you do not H= AVE to
cell balance a pack, but only as long as you are willing to live with
the limitations imposed by that choice. Do you know what those
limitations are?

When you have a number of cells of any chemistry in series in a battery
pack, they all receive exactly the same current when charging. Some
cells are a little more efficient than others so they get fully charged
before their colleagues in the string. If at that point they continue to receive charging current, they will over-charge. Some chemistries are
able to handle this over-charging. Other chemistries like LiPo are very
intolerant of this over charging and quite literally blow up. Cell
balancing attempts to make sure that the charge on each of the cells in
the string is identical so they all get fully charged at the same time,
maximizing the charge that the pack can hold. That maximum number is the one everyone throws around and that is the number you will expect to get from your battery pack.

As I mentioned, you do not HAVE to cell balance. For a LiPo or LiFe
pack, you can just monitor the voltage on each individual cell and stop
charging when one of the cells gets fully charged. Over time, the
discrepancy in th charge state between the most efficient and the least
efficient cell in the string will keep increasing, with the usable
capacity of the entire pack being controlled by the charge in the least
efficient cell. Taking this to the theoretical extreme, at some point
the pack will not be able to deliver any energy because one cell will be fully charged and another will be fully discharged. In real life, you
will declare the pack useless and stop using it before you get to that
point. If you are willing to live with this diminishing capacity, then
cell balancing is indeed not required. Just remember that your pack is
no longer going to have the same capacity as the pack that has cell
balancing and you must design the rest of your system to account for that.<= br>
Quoting the late Paul Harvey: Now you know the rest of the story.
=


Regards,

Hamid



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