X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:04:59 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc2-s21.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.157] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3441096 for lml@lancaironline.net; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:01:57 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.157; envelope-from=joscales98@hotmail.com Received: from BAY124-DS5 ([207.46.11.160]) by bay0-omc2-s21.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:01:21 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [75.81.226.134] X-Originating-Email: [joscales98@hotmail.com] X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: joscales98@hotmail.com From: "Jim Scales" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Down Flap Relay Failure X-Original-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:01:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C97D7C.364C3330" X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.60.0053.2200 Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:01:19 -0600 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2009 23:01:21.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[82339590:01C97DAE] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C97D7C.364C3330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have had to change a flap relay switch. I experienced intermittent = and infrequent failure of the flap system in that the flaps would travel = past the limit switch, jam up the flap motor and not return until I = disassembled the clevis from the flap actuator assembly and released the = bind on the motor. I replaced the switch on the control stick twice, the reed switch on the = flap motor twice and finally chased to problem to the flap relay switch. = Changed it and have had no more problem. I do carry a spare reed = switch and a spare relay switch. Just in case. Jim Scales ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Sky2high@aol.com=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:47 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Down Flap Relay Failure Tom, Verrrrry interrrrresting! ** It would be nice to know why the relay got stuck (contacts fused?) = so that the cause can be eliminated. =20 ** Did you later measure the actual flap angle since it was probably = larger than 45 degrees if the motor reached its mechanical limit? Such = a deployment could explain the lesser effect of the elevator. =20 ** Were the flap to bell crank push rods bent as the hole thru the = rear spar might not have been big enough to handle such an extreme?=20 ** Do you trim the elevator with a tab or spring load the whole = elevator? If by tab, it might not be as effective at slower speeds. ** What do you estimate as the location of the CG (I assume you still = have that heavier engine up front)? It might be too far forward when = low on fuel.=20 Nice flying to a successful touchdown. Timely responding to the drop = in airspeed saved the day. Power up and pushing the nose down to keep = the speed up is the right recipe. =20 I can only hope that Lancair training and practice includes slow = flight when all dirtied up (full flaps and gear out) as I believe that = slow regime is the most dangerous. The controllable bandwidth of pitch = and power it at its minimum. I was impressed that you dickered with the = power rather than try to instantly push the know thru the panel. I often = wonder if loss of control on a go-around because of too much power = applied to rapidly. I don't think I ever used Lancair's relays as I obtained sealed = pluggable ones with 10 amp rated contacts (high quality) from Radio = Shack and their related sockets so that the relay connections did not = have to be soldered and were easily replaceable. These relays have been = used thousands of times over 13 flying years (knocking on my oaken = head). =20 Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96 Aurora, IL (KARR) Pilot not TSO'd, Certificated score only > 70%. =20 In a message dated 1/22/2009 8:18:16 A.M. Central Standard Time, = dudewanarace@yahoo.com writes: I thought I would share my recent flap relay failure. Looking back = on what happened I think it was an interesting experience, and how my = training kicked in. So I turn downwind and slow to below gear speed. I drop the gear = and look for flap speed. Before I turn to base I usually add a bit of = flaps. Maybe 2 seconds worth. After selecting flaps I found a huge = change in pitch trim and a noticeable drop in airspeed. I looked out at = the flaps and found them to be fully extended. So much that I could see = straight down do the ground. (or at least it seemed like it) Instantly = I added some power with little results. I selected flaps up with no = results. A quick look at the flap breaker sticking out explained that = one. At this point I decided to not mess with anything else in the = cockpit and just fly the plane. Probably that Skip Holm training = kicking in. It also felt like I just deployed a drag chute, as the = airspeed was dropping quickly. I came back with a couple turns on the = prop and what I think was about half throttle. During the confusion I = had cut the turn from base to final and was a bit high for the approach. With plenty of runway left I was ok with = that. I did not want to go around, period. I found a power setting = that let me hold my current airspeed and gave me some pitch feeling = back. Being high on final I pointed the nose down and came back a bit = on the power. I have never been in a Lancair that was pointed down like = this one and it didn't speed up. Combine that with the 16 gusting to 22 = headwind and I had a very slow ground speed. It felt like I was flying = a Vans RV on final. haha Everything was feeling good so I even made a = normal radio call. :) Touchdown was very smooth, I have no idea how. I = do remember that I was full aft on the stick, or pitch up. This is a = small tail 360. The one time I wish it was bigger. My normal landing = does not consist of full flaps, let alone the mechanical limit of the = flap motor, because of the small tail. I can not trim to a neutral = stick and I am not comfortable with the lack of pitch up. The down flap relay stuck closed causing the flap motor to run. When = this happens it cuts the limit switch out of the loop. Yeehaww I have ordered new relays from Lancair. Just curious if anyone = knows if the relays are the same as what came with the early 90's kit? =20 Tom McNerney www.N54SG.com=20 -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy = steps! ------=_NextPart_000_00B9_01C97D7C.364C3330 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have had to change a flap relay switch.  I experienced = intermittent=20 and infrequent failure of the flap system in that the flaps would travel = past=20 the limit switch, jam up the flap motor and not return until I = disassembled the=20 clevis from the flap actuator assembly and released the bind on the = motor.
 
I replaced the switch on the control stick twice, the reed switch = on the=20 flap motor twice and finally chased to problem to the flap relay = switch. =20 Changed it and have had no more problem.  I do carry a spare reed = switch=20 and a spare relay switch.  Just in case.
 
Jim Scales
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 = 4:47=20 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Down Flap = Relay=20 Failure

Tom,
 
Verrrrry interrrrresting!
 
** It would be nice to know why the relay got stuck (contacts = fused?) so=20 that the cause can be eliminated. 
** Did you later measure the actual flap angle since it was = probably=20 larger than 45 degrees if the motor reached its mechanical = limit?  Such a=20 deployment could explain the lesser effect of the elevator.  =
** Were the flap to bell crank push rods bent as the hole = thru the=20 rear spar might not have been big enough to handle such an=20 extreme? 
** Do you trim the elevator with a tab or spring load the whole=20 elevator?  If by tab, it might not be as effective at slower=20 speeds.
** What do you estimate as the location of the CG (I assume = you=20 still have that heavier engine up front)?  It might be too far = forward=20 when low on fuel. 
 
Nice flying to a successful touchdown.  Timely responding to = the=20 drop in airspeed saved the day.  Power up and pushing the nose = down to=20 keep the speed up is the right recipe. 
 
I can only hope that Lancair training and practice = includes=20 slow flight when all dirtied up (full flaps and gear out) as I believe = that=20 slow regime is the most dangerous.  The controllable = bandwidth of=20 pitch and power it at its minimum.  I was impressed that you = dickered=20 with the power rather than try to instantly push the know thru the = panel. I=20 often wonder if loss of control on a go-around because of too much = power=20 applied to rapidly.
 
I don't think I ever used Lancair's relays as I obtained=20 sealed pluggable ones with 10 amp rated contacts (high = quality)=20 from Radio Shack and their related sockets so that the relay = connections did=20 not have to be soldered and were easily replaceable.  These=20 relays have been used thousands of times over 13 flying years = (knocking=20 on my oaken head).  
 
Scott=20 Krueger AKA Grayhawk
Lancair N92EX IO320 SB 89/96
Aurora, IL=20 (KARR)

Pilot not TSO'd, Certificated score only >=20 70%.
 
 
In a message dated 1/22/2009 8:18:16 A.M. Central Standard Time,=20 dudewanarace@yahoo.com writes:
I=20 thought I would share my recent flap relay failure.  Looking = back on=20 what happened I think it was an interesting experience, and how my = training=20 kicked in.

So I turn downwind and slow to below gear = speed.  I=20 drop the gear and look for flap speed.  Before I turn to base I = usually=20 add a bit of flaps.  Maybe 2 seconds worth.  After = selecting flaps=20 I found a huge change in pitch trim and a noticeable drop in = airspeed. =20 I looked out at the flaps and found them to be fully extended.  = So much=20 that I could see straight down do the ground. (or at least it seemed = like=20 it)  Instantly I added some power with little results.  I = selected=20 flaps up with no results.  A quick look at the flap breaker = sticking=20 out explained that one.  At this point I decided to not mess = with=20 anything else in the cockpit and just fly the plane.  Probably = that=20 Skip Holm training kicking in.  It also felt like I just = deployed a=20 drag chute, as the airspeed was dropping quickly.  I came back = with a=20 couple turns on the prop and what I think was about half = throttle. =20 During the confusion I had cut the turn from base to final and was = a
bit=20 high for the approach.  With plenty of runway left I was ok = with=20 that.  I did not want to go around, period.  I found = a power=20 setting that let me hold my current airspeed and gave me some pitch = feeling=20 back.  Being high on final I pointed the nose down and came = back a bit=20 on the power.  I have never been in a Lancair that was pointed = down=20 like this one and it didn't speed up.  Combine that with the 16 = gusting=20 to 22 headwind and I had a very slow ground speed.  It felt = like I was=20 flying a Vans RV on final. haha  Everything was feeling good so = I even=20 made a normal radio call. :)  Touchdown was very smooth, I have = no idea=20 how.  I do remember that I was full aft on the stick, or pitch=20 up.  This is a small tail 360.  The one time I wish it was = bigger.  My normal landing does not consist of full flaps, let = alone=20 the mechanical limit of the flap motor, because of the small = tail.  I=20 can not trim to a neutral stick and I am not comfortable
with the = lack of=20 pitch up.

The down flap relay stuck closed causing the flap = motor to=20 run. When this happens it cuts the limit switch out of the = loop. =20 Yeehaww

I have ordered new relays from Lancair.  Just = curious if=20 anyone knows if the relays are the same as what came with the early = 90's=20 kit? 

Tom McNerney
www.N54SG.com

--
For = archives=20 and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html=20
 

A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See=20 yours in just 2 easy steps!=20
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