X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:54:30 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from [66.64.141.200] (HELO lucky.dts.local) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3430938 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:26:35 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.64.141.200; envelope-from=cjensen@dts9000.com Subject: RE: [LML] Fw: [LML] GEESE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C9789F.49B8C9B0" X-Original-Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:29:48 -0500 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message X-Original-Message-ID: <8984A39879F2F5418251CBEEC9C689B3E866AC@lucky.dts.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [LML] Fw: [LML] GEESE Thread-Index: Acl4INNrZFHmdB+KQTWxYfIbMdX6GQAfkP9Q From: "Chuck Jensen" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9789F.49B8C9B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not to pop the 'feel good' bubble of public heros or anything, but why = am I a little underwhelmed at the 'miraculous' performance of the USAir = pilot? To his credit, at least he remembered to NOT put his gear down. = After that, I'm having a hard time identifying heroic, let alone the = miraculous components to this 'incident'. =20 Chuck Jensen=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of = Jabe Luttrell Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, =20 As for altitudes geese and other birds fly high and at night. See = article from the USGS. =20 Migration of Birds Migratory Flight Altitude _____ =20 While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not = clear, there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may = be advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar = landmarks, fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain = advantage of a following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory = balance.=20 In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation are = quite unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian Sparrowhawk = could be distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at 2,800 = feet. A Rook (a European member of the crow family) could be recognized = at 1,000 feet but disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An interesting = experiment with an inflated model of a vulture painted black with a wing = span of 7 feet 10 inches illustrated similar limitations. When released = from an airplane at 4,700 feet, it was barely visible and invisible = without binoculars at 5,800 feet. At 7,000 feet it was not picked up = even when 12 power binoculars were used. Radar studies have demonstrated = more accurately than human vision that 95 percent of the migratory = movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of the movements = occurring under 3,000 feet.=20 Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, where = less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is impressive if = only because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A Himalayan = mountain climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of geese = flew northward about two miles over his head honking as they went. At = 20,000 feet a man has a hard time talking while running, but those geese = were probably flying at 27,000 feet and even calling while they traveled = at this tremendous height. Numerous other observations have come from = the Himalayas. Observers at 14,000 feet recorded storks and cranes = flying so high that they could be seen only through field glasses. In = the same area large vultures were seen soaring at 25,000 feet and an = eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The expedition to Mt. Everest in = 1952 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail and a Black-tailed Godwit at = 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed Geese have been observed = flying over the highest peaks (29,000+ feet) even though a 10,000-foot = pass was nearby. Probably at least 30 species regularly cross these high = passes. Other accurate records on altitude of migratory flights are = scanty, although altimeter observations from airplanes and radar are = becoming more frequent in the literature. For example, a Mallard was = struck by a commercial airliner at 21,000 feet over the Nevada desert. = Radar observations have revealed that birds on long-distance flights fly = at higher altitudes than short-distance migrants. It has been = hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of greater velocity are found = higher up and that the cooler air minimizes the demand for evaporative = water loss to regulate body temperature under the exertion of flight. = Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal migrants fly at different = altitudes at different times during the night. Birds generally take off = shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum altitude. This peak is = maintained until around midnight, then the travelers gradually descend = until daylight. Thus, there is considerable variation, but for most = small birds the favored altitude appears to be between 500 and 1,000 = feet. Some nocturnal migrants (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean = at 15,000 or even 20,000 feet. Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly = higher than diurnal migrants. Observations made from lighthouses and = other vantage points indicate that certain migrants commonly travel at = altitudes of very few feet to a few hundred feet above sea or land. = Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and various sea ducks have been seen = flying so low they were visible only as they topped a wave. Observers = stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the English coast have = similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying just above the = surface of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet over the waves.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jabe Luttrell=20 To: Lancair Mailing List =20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE Hello Matt, =20 In my experience, geese fly where and when they choose. I flew IFR = through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at 6,000'. ATC called out = traffic. It was an eschelon of geese above me. I flew VFR over = Harford, Ct. at 2,000'. A Canada goose was flying from left to right a = few hundred feet above me. Just as it passed the fuselage above it = folded its wings and dove directly into my right engine (Cessna 320). = It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, lower nacelle, engine = cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the engine nacelle. I = was watching it the whole time. I couldn't maneuver the plane fast = enough to avoid it. How could an airliner? From that experience, I now = aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an converging path, expecting = them to dive out of the way as I get closer. =20 Jabe Luttrell ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Matt Reeves=20 To: lml@lancaironline.net=20 Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:41 AM Subject: [LML] GEESE Opinion by Matt Reeves: FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW and usually in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO SEE = ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE sometimes DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on = airplanes and on the ground. Pilots WERE heros once plane hit the = flock, but COULD have the collision with geese been avoided and the = answer may be YES. =20 It is possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the window = because the airplane was on an instrument flight plan =3D meaning, = controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft separation. =20 ALSO, this aircraft floated for enough time to save the passengers and = did not break apart mainly because of pilot skill bringing it down to a = shallow angle of impact at the slowest possible airspeed above stall = speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which is significantly LIGHTER = and stronger than aluminum and more flexible AND more seamless = preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV guys). =20 Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air also helped = buoyancy. PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the accident MAY have = been avoidable simply by looking out the window. Future geese = avoidance may include horns on aircraft, much like deer horns on cars, = radar, and simply looking out the window on the departure and arrival = checklists. =20 This aircraft was on an IFR flight plan meaning looking out the window = was not required by the pilots since the controllers on the ground were = responsible for separating aircraft. However, at low altitude, at = geese flight levels, looking out the window should be mandatory. Most = geese do not fly in clouds. All points I have not seen reported. What's next? Billions in research and in the end, no changes except a = Goose Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will simply tell us = the geese are depressed that we are taking over their skies. And in the = end? I will marry her. Matt marv@lancair.net wrote:=20 Posted for David Standish : That being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to come = out to=20 Montana this summer. Montana is a great place to fly. Lots of room for = training. Billings is a great small city. Yellowstone Park is nearby. = And a=20 local FBO has agreed to discount fuel. Please contact me if you are=20 interested. =20 David Standish =20 =20 =20 =20 flypetezacc@aol.com wrote: > ** > > The root problem is getting the message out to those that think they=20 > do not need training. 43% of the accidents are people with less than=20 > 100 hours in type. But, there is a very large number of accidents=20 > from people with 5000-20000 hours. The ease of receiving training has = > never been easier I implore those that do not need training to get it=20 > anyway! > > Grassroots effort. Go down the hangar row and let the lancair pilot=20 > know why its important to get training from ANY qualified=20 > instructor. help make 2009 the safest year for Lancair pilots. > > Thank you, > > Peter Zaccagnino > HP-AT.com, Inc > 1046 River Ave > Flemington, NJ 08822 > 908 391 2001 -- For archives and unsub = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html ------_=_NextPart_001_01C9789F.49B8C9B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not to=20 pop the 'feel good' bubble of public heros or anything, but why am I a = little=20 underwhelmed at the 'miraculous' performance of the USAir pilot?  = To his=20 credit, at least he remembered to NOT put his gear down.  After = that, I'm=20 having a hard time identifying heroic, let alone the miraculous = components=20 to this 'incident'.
 
Chuck = Jensen=20

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing = List=20 [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 = PM
To:=20 lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Fw: [LML]=20 GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
As for altitudes geese and other = birds fly high=20 and at night.  See article from the USGS.
 

Migration of Birds

Migratory Flight Altitude

While factors regulating the heights at which birds migrate are not = clear,=20 there are many obvious reasons why flying at higher altitudes may be=20 advantageous. High-altitude flight may be used to locate familiar = landmarks,=20 fly over fog or clouds, surmount physical barriers, gain advantage of = a=20 following wind, or maintain a better thermoregulatory balance.=20

In general, estimates of bird heights based on direct observation = are quite=20 unreliable except under special conditions. A Eurasian Sparrowhawk = could be=20 distinguished at 800 feet but disappeared from site at 2,800 feet. A = Rook (a=20 European member of the crow family) could be recognized at 1,000 feet = but=20 disappeared from sight at 3,300 feet. An interesting experiment with = an=20 inflated model of a vulture painted black with a wing span of 7 feet = 10 inches=20 illustrated similar limitations. When released from an airplane at = 4,700 feet,=20 it was barely visible and invisible without binoculars at 5,800 feet. = At 7,000=20 feet it was not picked up even when 12 power binoculars were used. = Radar=20 studies have demonstrated more accurately than human vision that 95 = percent of=20 the migratory movements occur at less than 10,000 feet, the bulk of = the=20 movements occurring under 3,000 feet.

Yet birds do fly at higher altitudes. Bird flight at 20,000 feet, = where=20 less than half the oxygen is present than at sea level, is impressive = if only=20 because the work is achieved by living muscle tissue. A Himalayan = mountain=20 climber at 16,000 feet was rather amazed when a flock of geese flew = northward=20 about two miles over his head honking as they went. At 20,000 feet a = man has a=20 hard time talking while running, but those geese were probably flying = at=20 27,000 feet and even calling while they traveled at this tremendous = height.=20 Numerous other observations have come from the Himalayas. Observers at = 14,000=20 feet recorded storks and cranes flying so high that they could be seen = only=20 through field glasses. In the same area large vultures were seen = soaring at=20 25,000 feet and an eagle carcass was found at 26,000 feet. The = expedition to=20 Mt. Everest in 1952 found skeletons of a Northern Pintail and a = Black-tailed=20 Godwit at 16,400 feet on Khumbu Glacier. Bar-headed Geese have been = observed=20 flying over the highest peaks (29,000+ feet) even though a 10,000-foot = pass=20 was nearby. Probably at least 30 species regularly cross these high = passes.=20 Other accurate records on altitude of migratory flights are scanty, = although=20 altimeter observations from airplanes and radar are becoming more = frequent in=20 the literature. For example, a Mallard was struck by a commercial = airliner at=20 21,000 feet over the Nevada desert. Radar observations have revealed = that=20 birds on long-distance flights fly at higher altitudes than = short-distance=20 migrants. It has been hypothesized that advantageous tail winds of = greater=20 velocity are found higher up and that the cooler air minimizes the = demand for=20 evaporative water loss to regulate body temperature under the exertion = of=20 flight. Radar studies also have shown that nocturnal migrants fly at = different=20 altitudes at different times during the night. Birds generally take = off=20 shortly after sundown and rapidly gain maximum altitude. This peak is=20 maintained until around midnight, then the travelers gradually descend = until=20 daylight. Thus, there is considerable variation, but for most small = birds the=20 favored altitude appears to be between 500 and 1,000 feet. Some = nocturnal=20 migrants (probably shorebirds) fly over the ocean at 15,000 or even = 20,000=20 feet. Nocturnal migrants also fly slightly higher than diurnal = migrants.=20 Observations made from lighthouses and other vantage points indicate = that=20 certain migrants commonly travel at altitudes of very few feet to a = few=20 hundred feet above sea or land. Sandpipers, Red-necked Phalaropes, and = various=20 sea ducks have been seen flying so low they were visible only as they = topped a=20 wave. Observers stationed at lighthouses and lightships off the = English coast=20 have similarly recorded the passage of landbirds flying just above the = surface=20 of the water and rarely rising above 200 feet over the waves. =

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jabe=20 Luttrell
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [LML] GEESE

Hello Matt,
 
In my experience, geese fly where and = when they=20 choose.  I flew IFR through Pennsylvania amid layers of clouds at = 6,000'.  ATC called out traffic.  It was an eschelon of = geese above=20 me.  I flew VFR over Harford, Ct. at 2,000'.  A Canada goose = was=20 flying from left to right a few hundred feet above me.  Just as = it passed=20 the fuselage above it folded its wings and dove directly into my right = engine=20 (Cessna 320).  It damaged the spinner, propeller, nose bowl, = lower=20 nacelle, engine cross over tube and deposited lots of itself in the = engine=20 nacelle.  I was watching it the whole time.  I couldn't = maneuver the=20 plane fast enough to avoid it.  How could an airliner?  From = that=20 experience, I now aim at any goose or eschelon of geese on an = converging path,=20 expecting them to dive out of the way as I get = closer.
 
Jabe Luttrell
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Matt=20 Reeves
Sent: Friday, January 16, = 2009 10:41=20 AM
Subject: [LML] GEESE

Opinion by Matt=20 Reeves:

FLOCKS OF GEESE FLY SLOW = and usually=20 in a "V" shape, AND ARE EASY TO SEE ON A BLUE SKY DAY - AND ARE = sometimes=20 DETECTABLE ON RADAR both on airplanes and on the ground.   = Pilots=20 WERE heros once plane hit the flock, but COULD have the collision = with geese=20 been avoided and the answer may be YES.    

It = is=20 possible that NEITHER pilot was looking straight out the window = because the=20 airplane was on an instrument flight = plan =3D=20 meaning, controllers on the ground were responsible for aircraft=20 separation.  

ALSO, this aircraft floated for = enough time=20 to save the passengers and did not break apart mainly because of = pilot skill=20 bringing it down to a shallow angle of impact at the slowest = possible=20 airspeed above stall speed AND it is built out of CARBON FIBER which = is=20 significantly LIGHTER and stronger than aluminum and more flexible = AND more=20 seamless preventing instant flooding, thus saving lives (sorry RV = guys).=20  

Baggage and landing gear compartments sealed with air = also=20 helped buoyancy.  PILOTS WERE HEROS in saving lives, but the = accident=20 MAY have been avoidable simply by looking out the = window.    Future=20 geese avoidance may include horns on aircraft, much like deer horns = on cars,=20 radar, and simply looking out the window on the departure and = arrival=20 checklists.   

This aircraft was on an IFR=20 flight plan meaning looking out the window was not = required by=20 the pilots since the controllers on the ground were responsible for=20 separating aircraft.   However, at low altitude, at geese = flight levels, = looking out=20 the window should be mandatory.  Most geese do not fly in=20 clouds.

All points I have not seen reported.

What's=20 next?  Billions in research and in the end, no changes except a = Goose=20 Therapist Lady will make off with millions and will simply tell us = the geese=20 are depressed that we are taking over their skies.  And in the=20 end?  I will marry=20 her.

Matt

marv@lancair.net wrote:=20
Posted=20 for David Standish = <carbonflier@bresnan.net>:

 That=20 being said I still need a couple more pilots to get Pete to come = out to=20
Montana this summer.  Montana is a great place to=20 fly.  Lots of room for
training.  Billings = is a=20 great small city.  Yellowstone Park is = nearby.  And a=20
local FBO has agreed to discount fuel.  Please = contact me if=20 you are
interested.
 
 David=20 = Standish
 
 
 
 
 flypetezacc@aol= .com=20 wrote:
> **
>
> The root problem is getting the = message=20 out to those that think they
> do not need = training.  43%=20 of the accidents are people with less than
> 100 hours in=20 type.  But, there is a very large number of accidents =
>=20 from people with 5000-20000 hours.  The ease of = receiving=20 training has
> never been easier I implore those that do = not need=20 training to get it
> anyway!
>
> Grassroots = effort. Go=20 down the hangar row and let the lancair pilot
> know why = its=20 important to get training from ANY qualified
> instructor. = help=20 make 2009 the safest year for Lancair pilots.
>
> = Thank=20 you,
>
> Peter Zaccagnino
> HP-AT.com, = Inc
> 1046=20 River Ave
> Flemington, NJ 08822
> 908 391 = 2001

--

For archives and unsub =
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html

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