Mailing List lml@lancaironline.net Message #49701
From: Susan Brunner <n98pb@sbcglobal.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: 360's at high altitudes
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:20:45 -0500
To: <lml@lancaironline.net>
Being a person, thankfully NOT the pilot, who experiences hypoxia even at levels of 6000 feet, I have to agree to Scott.  I was continuously experiencing headaches, nausea and migraines while flying in the IVP.  The cabin was in the vicinity of 6 to 7,000 feet.  I now know that I read things while in the plane.  When my vision begins to blur, I take oxygen for about 5 or 10 minutes.  I have experienced hypoxia in the following order:  blurred vision (not terrible, but definitely harder to focus), slight headache, slight nausea, tingling on the tips of my fingers (never had blue nails though), and then into a massive migraine.  If I let it go this far, I am sick to my stomach for nearly two days afterward with a headache.  This occurred several times while flying west to east coast in a one day period.  Once I put it together that it was hypoxia, I take on oxygen for a 5 to 10 minute period of time, or longer to rid myself of the symptoms.  I have also found that taking iron tablets for 3 days prior to flying a full day in the IVP or even in a commercial plane have alleviated the symptoms.  Last year I had to take oxygen on a commercial flight of 4 hours with the same symptoms.  Oxygen took care of the problem though they did want to have an ambulance waiting for me upon landing.  Thankfully the co-pilot had flown a IVP, got into a nice conversation with Pat and we were allowed to depart  without repercussions.  We recently spent time with our daughter in Colorado and the first two days were filled with some small periods of using oxygen.  I was at the hospital with my daughter and had the nurse check my oxygen saturation level and it was 98.  I was still experiencing the hypoxia symptoms that day and the oxygen took care of it, but the saturation level was high. 

My feeling is that if the oxygen takes care of the problem, I use it!
My 2cents.
Susan Brunner

PS  I also have asthma.

--- On Sat, 11/29/08, Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com> wrote:
From: Sky2high@aol.com <Sky2high@aol.com>
Subject: [LML] Re: 360's at high altitudes
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 7:08 PM

Well, You and other doctors may believe what you want - I am evidence that #1 below may be a normal response, but it did not happen that way to me.  Thus, all of you abnormal pilots out there should consider the value of a pulse oximeter.
 
Those of you flying pressurized planes should be concerned with sudden decompression The rest of us have to be concerned about insidious creeping hypoxia (i.e. on a long, mid-altitudes (8000-10000) flight on a hot day).  Second of all, density altitude should always be considered, not MSL regardless of what the FAA says. And, I will repeat that any individual's response can vary because of physical state, fatique, age, weight, etc.
 
See also:
 
 
I have evidence that a person flying commercially at a cabin altitude of 8000 feet exhibited the symptoms of hypoxia after falling asleep (shallow breathing) and suffering with the anxiety of repeating her experience again.
 
You may not want to rely on an oximeter, but it's use and readings are far better than succumbing to even mild hypoxia while piloting.  You should be able to recognize hyperventilation and stop it.
 
Your experience may vary. 
 
Scott Krueger AKA Grayhawk
LNC2 N92EX IO 320 SB 89/96
 
In a message dated 11/29/2008 6:52:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, rmitch1@hughes.net writes:

I guess I showed my obsolescence with the observation about welder’s oxygen, as one person on the list stated, “they were different twenty years ago”, I didn’t realize the spec’s had changed.

 

However, over-reliance on finger pulse oximetry is something that pilot’s need to understand.  The reason is that pulse oximetry measures O2 saturation in peripheral blood, which may be different from cerebral oxygen saturation, and may lag behind.

 

For more info read the article below which appeared on our international AME list.  More than a few docs on the list are professors or research docs.  They essentially all agree with the concepts.

 

Bob Mitchell

L-320

Senior AME

 

 

At the Airlines Medical Directors Association scientific meeting in Orlando in 2006, Professor John Ernsting presented a joint paper with Group Captain David Gradwell summarising the theoretical and experimental results of the effect of hyperventilation on arterial oxygen saturation. 

They concluded that the limitations of pulse oximetry in hypoxia should be widely recognised in aviation. Here are the reasons.

Reduction of alveolar PCO2 (partial pressure CO2) to 20 mmHg when breathing air at 14k raises arterial SO2 (oxygen Saturation) to 96%, which is produced in the absence of hyperventilation by breathing air at 1,500 feet.

A degree of hyperventilation is the normal response to acute exposure of breathing air at or above 8,000 feet.

Using the relationship between arterial PCO2, arterial SO2 and jugular venous PO2 (partial pressure oxygen), it can be calculated that when air is breathed at altitudes above 10k, arterial oxygen saturation is a very poor indicator of minimum

PO2 in the brain if the individual is hyperventilating. This also applies when oxygen-air gas mixtures are breathed to avoid significant hypoxia at altitude. This is because hyperventilation is known to have a very large effect on arterial SO2 in hypoxia, which is not matched by the cerebral SO2.

Professor Ernsing's and David Gradwell's paper confirmed this theoretical calculation by experimental study. The results showed that hyperventilation which reduced the end-tidal PCO2 produced large increases in arterial SO2 which was not matched by increases in cerebral SO2.

The take-home message, which we should share with our high-flying general aviation colleagues, can be summarised thus:

 

1) Hyperventilation is a normal response to any degree of hypoxia.

2) This hyperventilation affects the peripheral arterial oxygen saturation.

3) The result is that a pulse oximeter can give misleading information about the saturation of oxygen in the cerbral circulation. Unfortunately, it is not 'fail-safe' because the pulse oximeter may provide reassurance about satisfactory arterial SO2 when in fact the brain is hypoxic.

4) Pulse oximetry is a useful tool, but its limitations in aviation must be recognised. Ideally, an oxygen-enriched gas should be breathed whenever flying above a cabin altitude of 10,000feet.

 

 



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