X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:39:26 -0500 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([216.252.111.217] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with SMTP id 3283480 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:33:28 -0500 Received: (qmail 12538 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Nov 2008 03:33:28 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=sAMTQTN/BVq65DN+DQ+Ic3DTwvV+Jq3yV0j5eawr7+R2WI6tzdWMoFBc+ACt3GuxPQfqPNsp5CyD3kE/jXDDvSeKvjDKP8gugsOFAaIvRQKXSab8M9WXTj6bWMmoPWD9YbheQtmCIbrq5PQxTrbvvPNVgUv4LfULWWKAiUTgafs=; X-YMail-OSG: Y6Mb7w4VM1kgcrGxxPs1WJSoo12dFj.hv4ZRseDhgsW65B_Xh1TW1.xAqhcbhu1ufEJiApwmZmJvIc7na3_Afu4sBdNKK2cLSnT3fRmDaeXfzkf7dfNJVHrKQ1fPmxX369URagJIJEGmaIPmdXQ6LiyByZ2LQ1DHi2qHvvdsFb2TXG3zpgXGAqW4zs8Qk4LyeMkSImYNS8LLFOk- Received: from [68.188.100.236] by web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:33:27 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 X-Original-Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:33:27 -0800 (PST) From: m miriani Reply-To: lancair33@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-175580242-1226288007=:11951" X-Original-Message-ID: <82088.11951.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> --0-175580242-1226288007=:11951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff =A0 To their credit aeromedical in Oklahoma City=A0used statistical data to mak= e the age 40 rule change based on the average person less likely to have an= incapacitating event in their thirties. I can tell you the system often do= es work to keep some people from flying who shouldnt be for those they migh= t bring along and those on the ground below. I would like to see how they c= ollected the data on those accidents on pilots without their medical certif= icate. Accidents related to medical issues are rare and we know how the dat= a is collected on those with medical certificates. =A0 Thanks for the stats on the pilot group. Makes the point for everyone to ha= ve the proper training while getting the experience needed. Keep em coming.= I wouldnt think of flying without recurrent proficiency training. =A0 Matt Miriani AME --- On Sun, 11/9/08, vtailjeff@aol.com wrote: From: vtailjeff@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:10 PM Rick, You have great points. Unfortunately we spend millions of dollars on the FA= A data and don't get much bang for the buck. Here is an interesting statist= ic I did last year on the medical certificate issue for a comment I submitt= ed the third class medical NPRM.=20 Which group of pilots have fewer per capita medically related accidents?=20 a. Pilots with medical certificates b. Pilots without medical certificates Answer is b. Pilots without medical certificates (glider pilots, balloon pi= lots) have fewer medically related accidents.=20 =A0I asked the aviation medical panel =A0at SNF why Private airplane pilots= needed medical certificates and their answer was that they used this argum= ent to support the light sport certificate no medical requirement. Unfortun= ately they could not extend the same logic to the third class medical altho= ugh they just upped the third class to five years for those under 40 (but n= ot changing a thing for the over 40 crowd).=20 Remember it is the FAA and their motto is "it does not have to make sense" = ;) Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Rick Titsworth To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 8:51 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs _filtered #yiv1610801789 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 = 4;} _filtered #yiv1610801789 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 = 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1610801789 {font-family:"Arial Black";panose-1:2 11 10 = 4 2 1 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1610801789 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#= yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 #AOLMSGPAR= T_2_A2795EDE-C7B3-447E-A9D5-A0373A4A58DE a:link {}#yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPar= t_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 #AOLMSGPART_2_A2795EDE-C7B3-447E-A= 9D5-A0373A4A58DE span.MSOHYPERLINK {}#yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-= d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 #AOLMSGPART_2_A2795EDE-C7B3-447E-A9D5-A0373A4A5= 8DE a:visited {}#yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc32= 2ea6e0 #AOLMSGPART_2_A2795EDE-C7B3-447E-A9D5-A0373A4A58DE span.MSOHYPERLINK= FOLLOWED {} _filtered #yiv1610801789 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 = 3 5 4 4 2 4;} _filtered #yiv1610801789 {font-family:"Arial Black";panose-1:2 11 10 4 2 1 2 2 2 4;}#yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cc= e0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 p.MsoNormal, #yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0= d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 li.MsoNormal, #yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPar= t_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 div.MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-= bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}#yiv16108017= 89 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 p.msochpdefault, #yiv= 1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 li.msochpdef= ault, #yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 di= v.msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-fam= ily:"Times New Roman";}#yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527= -38bc322ea6e0 span.EmailStyle19 {font-family:"Arial Black";font-variant:nor= mal;color:black;text-transform:none;text-shadow:none;font-weight:normal;fon= t-style:normal;text-decoration:none none;vertical-align:baseline;}#yiv1610801789 #AOLMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4= 978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 span.EmailStyle20 {font-family:Arial;color:navy;} _fi= ltered #yiv1610801789 {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}#yiv1610801789 #AO= LMsgPart_2_e0d9cce0-d6d5-4978-b527-38bc322ea6e0 div.Section1 {} All good info. =A0But, as usually, we must be careful with the inferences f= rom mis-used/mis-applied statistics. To relate that private pilots make up 35% of the total pilot population and= 48% of GA accidents is pretty useless by itself. =A0 i.e. What percentage of airline and/or commercial flight accidents are attr= ibuted private pilots?=A0 Of course the answer is zero.=A0 That=92s because= the population of all airline/commercial pilots and the population of all = GA pilots are not the same.=A0 Thus, relating the % of GA pilot type accide= nts to the type % of the total pilot population (GA, commercial, and airlin= e) is on the surface inconclusive and perhaps mis-leading. =A0 It could easily be that 60% of all GA pilots are private pilots and when as= sociated with the 48% private pilot accident statistic above leads to the o= pposite conclusion that, in aggregate, the private pilots are actually less= likely to be correlated with the accident rate (generally fly in better we= ather on local flights, etc). =A0 I=92m all for ratings and training =96 but Jeff said =93food for thought=94= =96 so I couldn=92t help but comment. =A0 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtai= ljeff@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:09 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs =A0 Here is more food for thought.=20 Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Giffen Marr To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 7:07 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs Jeff What is the vertical scale?? Giff =A0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com [mailto:vtailjeff@aol.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:03 PM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Safety in our Community of Lancairs =A0 Here is a pretty sobering chart. Jeff =A0 McCain or Obama? Stay up to date on the latest from the campaign trail with= AOL News.=20 =A0 Instant access to the latest & most popular FREE games while you browse wit= h the Games Toolbar - Download Now!=20 Instant access to the latest & most popular FREE games while you browse wit= h the Games Toolbar - Download Now! =0A=0A=0A --0-175580242-1226288007=:11951 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff
 
To their credit aeromedical in Oklahoma City used statistical dat= a to make the age 40 rule change based on the average person less likely to= have an incapacitating event in their thirties. I can tell you the system = often does work to keep some people from flying who shouldnt be for those t= hey might bring along and those on the ground below. I would like to see ho= w they collected the data on those accidents on pilots without their medica= l certificate. Accidents related to medical issues are rare and we know how= the data is collected on those with medical certificates.
 
Thanks for the stats on the pilot group. Makes the point for everyone = to have the proper training while getting the experience needed. Keep em co= ming. I wouldnt think of flying without recurrent proficiency training.
 
Matt Miriani
AME

--- On Sun, 11/9/08, vtailjeff@aol.com <vtailjeff@= aol.com> wrote:
From: vtailjeff@aol.com <vtailjeff@aol.com>
= Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs
To: lml@lancairon= line.net
Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 6:10 PM

Rick,

You have great points. Unfortunately w= e spend millions of dollars on the FAA data and don't get much bang for the= buck. Here is an interesting statistic I did last year on the medical cert= ificate issue for a comment I submitted the third class medical NPRM.
<= BR>Which group of pilots have fewer per capita medically related acc= idents?

a. Pilots with medical certificates

b. Pilots withou= t medical certificates

Answer is b. Pilots without medical certifica= tes (glider pilots, balloon pilots) have fewer medically related accidents.= =20
=
 = I asked the aviation medical panel  at SNF why Private airplane pilots= needed medical certificates and their answer was that they used this argum= ent to support the light sport certificate no medical requirement. Unfortun= ately they could not extend the same logic to the third class medical altho= ugh they just upped the third class to five years for those under 40 (but n= ot changing a thing for the over 40 crowd).

Remember it is the FAA = and their motto is "it does not have to make sense" ;)


Jeff
<= BR>

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Titsworth <rtitswort= h@mindspring.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 = 8:51 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs

All good info.  = But, as usually, we must be careful with the inferences from mis-used/mis-a= pplied statistics.
To relate that privat= e pilots make up 35% of the total pilot population and 48% of GA accidents = is pretty useless by itself.
 <= /DIV>
i.e. What percentage = of airline and/or commercial flight accidents are attributed private pilots= ?  Of course the answer is zero.  That=92s because the population= of all airline/commercial pilots and the population of all GA pilots are n= ot the same.  Thus, relating the % of GA pilot type accidents to the t= ype % of the total pilot population (GA, commercial, and airline) is on the= surface inconclusive and perhaps mis-leading.
 <= /DIV>
It could easily be th= at 60% of all GA pilots are private pilots and when associated with the 48%= private pilot accident statistic above leads to the opposite conclusion th= at, in aggregate, the private pilots are actually less likely to be correla= ted with the accident rate (generally fly in better weather on local flight= s, etc).
 <= /DIV>
I=92m all for ratings= and training =96 but Jeff said =93food for thought=94 =96 so I couldn=92t = help but comment.
 <= /DIV>
From:= Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of vtailjeff@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:= 09 PM
To: lml@lancaironline= .net
Subject: [LML] = Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs
 
Here is more food for tho= ught.

Jeff


-----Original Message-----
From: Giffen Ma= rr <gamarr@charter.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Wed, 5 N= ov 2008 7:07 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Safety in our Community of Lancairs
Jef= f
Wha= t is the vertical scale??
Gif= f
&nb= sp;
From:= vtailjeff@aol.com= [mailto:vtailj= eff@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:03 PM
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: Safety in our Community of Lancairs
 
Here is a pretty sobering chart.

Jeff
 
McCain or Obama? St= ay up to date on the latest from the campaign trail with AOL News.
 
Instant access to the latest & most popular FREE games while y= ou browse with the Games Toolbar - = Download Now!<= /U>

=0A=0A --0-175580242-1226288007=:11951--