X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:11:30 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.24] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.7) with ESMTP id 3110996 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:06:10 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.24; envelope-from=j.hafen@comcast.net Received: from OMTA06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.51]) by QMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 9rY61a00616AWCUA2t5bW2; Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:05:35 +0000 Received: from [10.128.88.223] ([206.191.160.125]) by OMTA06.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 9t5M1a00H2idoaN8St5Qs4; Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:05:33 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=S3JOoEEdnAcA:10 a=GmMWD9KnNk4A:10 a=vnREMb7VAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=tCoxvbWIAAAA:8 a=zNgN7VaukIfMR08OSS8A:9 a=7qIA6xySqDxRNfXsXd8A:7 a=2MNfqEO8e6hdhFXfJkY_udiJAcsA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=3jk_M6PjnjYA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=0o7e9zIFVUsA:10 a=xfNXT5P86egA:10 a=OxcXhscpB9FatUj0TPYA:9 a=agMfn18pnsezAORk5z4A:7 a=2eyfVF0jXZ-7HAJXCq9zmNiwVtwA:4 a=Sz-0p1zU2dQA:10 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.12.0.080729 X-Original-Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:05:21 -0700 Subject: Lancair Ivs, Insurance, F4 Bailouts, and the Farmers Daughter From: John Hafen X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List X-Original-Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Lancair Ivs, Insurance, F4 Bailouts, and the Farmers Daughter Thread-Index: AckNHhUL4PFLlLkeq0mjEchwMCGQjg== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3303194731_279539" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3303194731_279539 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Bryan asks, =B3what does that mean for Lancair=B9s future?=B2 if the IV series becomes uninsurable. More germane to me is the question of owning a $500k asset that is uninsurable. And if I don=B9t want it because it is uninsurable, then who would? Right now, I=B9m happy to have the privilege of paying almost $10k per year t= o insure N413AJ. I hope it stays insurable and the rate doesn=B9t continue to increase. As we discuss safety and slow flight and spins and knowing the characteristics of an individual planes and etc., I flashed back to my time in the USAF. I logged about 1,000 hours as an F4 back-seater. We practiced the ejection sequence on a mechanical trainer. One would pull the handle and then launc= h up a rail for maybe 25 feet. It was nothing at all like the bone crushing ejection sequence of a real Martin-Baker ejection seat. We parasailed behind jeeps and practiced Parachute Landing Falls (PLFs). We parasailed behind speed boats and cut loose and landed in the water where we inflated life rafts then got =B3rescued=B2 by helicopters. But they never let us jump out of a real plane. It was too risky. Some of us (not me) went to Fort Benning and got jump wings. The Air Force didn=B9t really condone it. Too risky. We did not spin the F4. Once a guy got into a flat spin in an F4, you woul= d just bail out. First you would follow the checklist: =B3Stick Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral. If not recovered, maintain full forward stick and deploy drag chute.=B2 Then you would get out because the F4 just plain would not recover from a flat spin. So we simply avoided spins. Everyone I knew who used the Martin Baker ejection seat, with its explosive zero zero ejection capability, got injured. But they survived. They might have a couple of limbs in casts for a while or a bad back for the rest of their lives, but at least they survived. (Whatever you do, do not look dow= n to make sure your seat belt is tight just before your back seater pulls the ejection handle.) So, for me personally, knowing that stalling my IV may result in an unrecoverable spin, especially if I=B9m in uncoordinated flight at the entrance, makes me a little more inclined to not poke imprudently at the edge of the envelope. Even if you could get out of the plane (I don=B9t believe you can) you don=B9t have an ejection seat. And a parachute won=B9t help if you stall in your base to final leg, or anywhere close to the ground. So I=B9ll continue to fly fast, even in the pattern, so I can go home and see the Farmer=B9s Daughter after I fly. =20 John Hafen IVP N413AJ Only 75 hours On 8/31/08 4:49 AM, "Bryan Wullner" wrote: > If the IV is or becomes un-insurable what does that mean for Lancair's fu= ture? > I would think insurance companies would just start adding other Lancair m= odels > to the list of un-insurables too. >=20 > Whats wrong with mandatory initial training? >=20 > Bryan >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM, wrote: >> John, Bryan & other like minded individuals, >>=20 >> In case you have been living on another planet these last few months you= may >> not be aware of the crisis our deceased Lancair brethren have created. >>=20 >> 1. If you own a Lancair IV series aircraft you have been informed by AIG= that >> they will not renew your insurance policy due to the Lancair losses this= past >> year (and not all Lancair losses are IV's). Although I was paying over $= 7000/ >> year for hull and liability-- I may not be able to get it at all. Thank = you >> very much.=20 >>=20 >> 2. The FAA is seriously considering making mandatory initial training by= an >> approved CFI prior to acting as PIC. Thank you very, very much. >>=20 >> These aircraft are not toys. Please fly responsibly. We do not need any = more >> accidents. If you post your stuff on youtube.com--do not be shocked that >> someone thinks negatively of you actions. >>=20 >>=20 >> Best Regards, >>=20 >> Jeff >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: marv@lancair.net >> To: lml@lancaironline.net >> Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 1:53 pm >> Subject: [LML] Legacy video >>=20 >> Posted for "Jon Socolof" : >>=20 >> Hi,=20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> I've never posted on the LML before but I'd like to respond to those un= happy >> with the Legacy videos. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> I posted a video of my Legacy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhtM9K3BwXb= U and >> what you see is a "low approach" directly over the runway a maneuver th= at is >> perfectly legal and safe. Everybody I have met that has seen the video = has >> enjoyed it. I'm sorry that some feel it demonstrates reckless behavior= , I >> simply disagree. I built my airplane to enjoy and I'm proud of the vide= o we >> shot. For those that may be unhappy with my video I'd rather you just >> appreciate it for what it is and go on your way without comment. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Jon Socolof >> =20 >> Legacy 212XP >> =20 >> -- >>=20 >> For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.h= tml >>=20 >> Get the MapQuest Toolbar >> . Directions, >> Traffic, Gas Prices & More! >=20 >=20 --B_3303194731_279539 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Lancair Ivs, Insurance, F4 Bailouts, and the Farmers Daughter</TITLE= > </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt= '>Bryan asks, “what does that mean for Lancair’s future?” = if the IV series becomes uninsurable.<BR> <BR> More germane to me is the question of owning a $500k asset that is uninsura= ble.   And if I don’t want it because it is uninsurable, the= n who would?<BR> <BR> Right now, I’m happy to have the privilege of paying almost $10k per = year to insure N413AJ.  I hope it stays insurable and the rate doesn= 217;t continue to increase.<BR> <BR> As we discuss safety and slow flight and spins and knowing the characterist= ics of an individual planes and etc., I flashed back to my time in the USAF.= <BR> <BR> I logged about 1,000 hours as an F4 back-seater.  We practiced the eje= ction sequence on a mechanical trainer.  One would pull the handle and = then launch up a rail for maybe 25 feet.  It was nothing at all like th= e bone crushing ejection sequence of a real Martin-Baker ejection seat. &nbs= p;We parasailed behind jeeps and practiced Parachute Landing Falls (PLFs). &= nbsp;We parasailed behind speed boats and cut loose and landed in the water = where we inflated life rafts then got “rescued” by helicopters. =  <BR> <BR> But they never let us jump out of a real plane.  It was too risky. &nb= sp;Some of us (not me) went to Fort Benning and got jump wings.  The Ai= r Force didn’t really condone it.  Too risky.<BR> <BR> We did not spin the F4.  Once a guy got into a flat spin in an F4, you= would just bail out.  First you would follow the checklist: “Sti= ck Forward, Ailerons and Rudder Neutral.  If not recovered, maintain fu= ll forward stick and deploy drag chute.”  Then you would get out = because the F4 just plain would not recover from a flat spin.<BR> <BR> So we simply avoided spins.<BR> <BR> Everyone I knew who used the Martin Baker ejection seat, with its explosive= zero zero ejection capability, got injured.  But they survived.  = They might have a couple of limbs in casts for a while or a bad back for the= rest of their lives, but at least they survived.  (Whatever you do, do= not look down to make sure your seat belt is tight just before your back se= ater pulls the ejection handle.)<BR> <BR> So, for me personally, knowing that stalling my IV may result in an unrecov= erable spin, especially if I’m in uncoordinated flight at the entrance= , makes me a little more inclined to not poke imprudently at the edge of the= envelope.  Even if you could get out of the plane (I don’t belie= ve you can) you don’t have an ejection seat.   And a parachu= te won’t help if you stall in your base to final leg, or anywhere clos= e to the ground.<BR> <BR> So I’ll continue to fly fast, even in the pattern, so I can go home a= nd see the Farmer’s Daughter after I fly.<BR>    <BR> John Hafen<BR> IVP N413AJ  Only 75 hours<BR> <BR> On 8/31/08 4:49 AM, "Bryan Wullner" <<a href=3D"vonjet@gmail.com= ">vonjet@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>If the IV is or becomes un-insurable what does t= hat mean for Lancair's future?  I would think insurance companies would= just start adding other Lancair models to the list of un-insurables too. &n= bsp;<BR> <BR> Whats wrong with mandatory initial training? <BR> <BR> Bryan<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 4:11 PM,  <<a href=3D"vtailjeff@aol.com">vtai= ljeff@aol.com</a>> wrote:<BR> </SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>John, Bryan & other like minded individuals,= <BR> <BR> In case you have been living on another planet these last few months you ma= y not be aware of the crisis our deceased Lancair brethren have created. <BR= > <BR> 1. If you own a Lancair IV series aircraft you have been informed by AIG th= at they will not renew your insurance policy due to the Lancair losses this = past year (and not all Lancair losses are IV's). Although I was paying over = $7000/ year for hull and liability-- I may not be able to get it at all. Tha= nk you very much. <BR> <BR> 2. The FAA is seriously considering making mandatory initial training by an= approved CFI prior to acting as PIC. Thank you very, very much.<BR> <BR> These aircraft are not toys. Please fly responsibly. We do not need any mor= e accidents. If you post your stuff on youtube.com--do not be shocked that s= omeone thinks negatively of you actions. <BR> <BR> <BR> Best Regards,<BR> <BR> Jeff<BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> -----Original Message-----<BR> From: <a href=3D"marv@lancair.net">marv@lancair.net</a><BR> To: <a href=3D"lml@lancaironline.net">lml@lancaironline.net</a><BR> Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 1:53 pm<BR> Subject: [LML] Legacy video<BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt= '>Posted for "Jon Socolof" <<a href=3D"jsocolof@ershire.com">jsoc= olof@ershire.com</a>>:<BR> <BR>  Hi, <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  I've never posted on the LML before but I'd like to respond to those = unhappy<BR>  with the Legacy videos. <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  I posted a video of my Legacy <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= =3DhtM9K3BwXbU">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DhtM9K3BwXbU</a> and<BR>  what you see is a "low approach" directly over the runway a= maneuver that is<BR>  perfectly legal and safe. Everybody I have met that has seen the vide= o has<BR>  enjoyed it.  I'm sorry that some feel it demonstrates reckless b= ehavior, I<BR>  simply disagree. I built my airplane to enjoy and I'm proud of the vi= deo we<BR>  shot.  For those that may be unhappy with my video I'd rather yo= u just<BR>  appreciate it for what it is and go on your way without comment. <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  <BR>  Jon Socolof<BR>  <BR>  Legacy 212XP<BR>  <BR> </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN = STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>--<BR> <BR> For archives and unsub <a href=3D"http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/= List.html">http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html</a><BR> </SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt= '><HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"100%">Get the MapQuest Toolbar <<a hre= f=3D"http://mapquest.com/toolbar?ncid=3Dmpqmap00050000000010">http://mapquest.co= m/toolbar?ncid=3Dmpqmap00050000000010</a>> . Directions, Traffic, Gas Price= s & More!</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, A= rial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'> <BR> </SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">= <SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR> <BR> </SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> </BODY> </HTML> --B_3303194731_279539--