X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:04:34 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([205.188.139.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3102179 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:31:11 -0400 Received: from Sky2high@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.d3f.2c8c74dc (42809) for ; Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:31:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Sky2high@aol.com X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:31:08 EDT Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Thoughts on accidents - Flying slow is not ....- Sims. X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1220193068" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 34 X-Spam-Flag:NO -------------------------------1220193068 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jarrett, Please don't think that I am picking on you - it is just very easy for me to respond to the issues you raise. I hope the dialogue is useful to you and other low time 200/300 series Lancair pilots. The "green arc" contains no magic for a Lancair - if you have built your Lancair with efficiency in mind you will find that you are frequently flying in the yellow arc and you will have to think about the power setting on a descent in order not to pass the Vne line (my God the GPS ground speed can really wind up!). To me, every flight is a learning experience, especially its termination in successfully landing. I agree that one should be able to feel the airplane, especially at low speeds. The AOA has helped me greatly to associate those feeling with air speeds and performance. I am no longer totally dependent on it. However, while a total electrical failure has a remote possibility, my airplane is equipped with an Essential Bus system and the complete range of electrical system monitoring devices including a red light should the alternator fail and a dedicated backup battery for the Electronic Ignition. One must consider single point failures in aircraft systems and their backups in order to avoid using those finely honed superior pilot skills. The construction of such protections is precisely one of the great advantages available to those that build their own airplane. DOn't worry, "mushy" means different things to different people but these Lancairs all get mushy at slower speeds - the difference is where the CG is located. The CAFE report dealt with only one custom built Lancair. Their comments are generally valid but lets look at the variations in pitch management that you haven't even thought about. The easy one is the change brought about installing the bigger horizontal, although there are differences since not all of those airplanes installed the long engine mount that addressed the rearward CG issue. The first change made by many (not all) 300 builders was to shorten the elevator bell crank from 4" to 3". This reduced the stick throw 25%, increased the sensitivity (less stick movement, same elevator movement) and increased the force necessary to move the elevator (a benefit). Of course this had an effect on the spring biased trim system requiring stiffer springs. Then there are those of use that use the Reichel geared trim wheel in that environment rather than the Lancair supplied crucifix/friction system. The there are those that use electric servo operated trim tabs instead of the spring system. Why do I mention these variations? Because they all mean differences in controlling the pitch in different flight regimes. The spring system is exerting force in one direction and that makes it easy to move the stick in the opposite direction. I don't know if tabs have that same feel. Also remember there is a bob weight to increase the force required as the effective G's increase. Which of these options have you chosen? Yes, one should know how the approach to stall feels so that you don't go there. Make sure you have plenty of altitude when training to get this feeling. There are not enough Lancair experienced trainers, especially in the midwest (Jeff, are you the only one?). Better you use much of the flyoff 40 hours to learn how to land the powered lawn dart. Your C150 experience will do you no good in a Lancair. Your Lancair should be placarded against intentional spins. There is no terminal velocity in a Lancair (unlike the underpowered draggy C150). Please don't do this with a "passenger", no one has successfully jumped from a Lancair (at least that I know of). Jarrett, good luck with the building and flying your future Lancair. Scott Krueger In a message dated 8/31/2008 6:50:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time, hjjohnson@sasktel.net writes: Thanks for the well written reply Scott. I'm fairly thick skinned fella, so no worries.. it's more just a humorus closing for me :-). Yes there is no question I'm a low time Lancair pilot. I carry just under 2k in my book but zero in a Lnc anything.. I guess my basic feel for anything I fly is that I want to be comfortable in all area's of the green arc. I know we rarely ever get into the bottom of the arc and we can be proud to own something which does really travel. We never plan to have emergency's or in-flight problems but in reality they do happen. Just as we'll plan and train for other emergency's we also need to train to fly the airframe to either end of the spectrum. We need to know what our max demonstrated speed is for max rate decents during pressurization failures, for the same reason. If we 'know the proceedure' but have never seen it even demonstrated.. let alone practiced it.. we are more than likely going to mess it up somehow [as Ted mentioned]. My point about Bob was simply that Bob did practice his routine and knew it the letter. He could nail it time and again because of this.. if we practice and know our airplane.. we to can nail it when the problem arises. Instrumentation is an excellent tool to utilize and assist in keeping the right side down and things going smoothly, however we also need to be able to fly the a/c by feel.. to a certain degree. If a person had an electical fire and had to do a forced approach w/ no electrics.. an electrical AOA isn't going to be there to help a guy out. We are so used to flying the 'store bought' GA airframes that we also fall into the trap, thinking that they behave in the same way, but do they? You mentioned a mushy feel to the controls. This is true for maybe 90% of airframes but it may not be for my airframe or the next guy's. You'd mentioned that since every single Lancair is different from the next, and that only makes it that much more nesc that we know 'our' airframe. The neighbours might stall at 65 'cause he built his super light.. while the neighbour on the other side might have a 75 stall speed.. One thing I've read [and I have no experiance so maybe this isn't the case.. clue me in.. if it isn't] in CAFE reports is the very little pitch 'feel' there is in a Lnc3xx. The stick forces were measured in the single digit #'s.. and less than 5 if I remember correctly. This would lead me to believe that the stick 'feel' in regards to on the edge of a stall.. would be a very difficult indicator.. but then I've never experianced it to comment to deeply. The bottom line is we need to know our a/c and how it behaves. We need to train for the unexpected and the unplanned.. If we know exactly how our airframe behaves right up to the early loss of lift at the beginning of the stall, that is all we can do.. but we need to know it cold.. It was previously mentioned that if this accident rate happened in the military, heads would roll, training would be implimented and the problem resolved. The problem would not be resolved by telling the pilots not to fly in this region of the 'normal category' envelope 'cause it 'could' kill you.. rather.. they train the pilots how the a/c behaves there.. how to handle it etc.. The more we know.. and train for it the better pilots we'll be. Back in the day I used to fly our C150 back to the farm regularly. Often just to keep things interesting, I'd cruise climb from the city all the way all the way out. I'd get to 7-8k before I got to the farm, then I'd spin it down 2-3000 ft and after recovering, do a full forced approach to the farm strip [engine at idle]. It didn't make me an expert pilot but it certainly didn't hurt my proficiency either. Back then, every time I went flying I practiced some emergency or pushed myself to improve in some defined area. I think it helped and I still try to do that even when I have passengers on board.. Mind you.. I'm not pulling the mixture or anything. It's still good practice to try and recite an emergency proceedure.. [smoke in the cabin] and then pull the check list and see how I did.. This stuff isn't hard.. but it makes us better pilots, safer pilots. It's our due diligence, our responsibility as PIC's. Anyway, I think we all have our own approach to this issue, I hope plans are implimented, some training is completed and results are produced. I'd like to be able to afford to insure my airframe someday in the future when it's finally ready to fly. :-) Best Jarrett Johnson Ps- I agree w/ you on simulators.. the run of the mill PC Simulator isn't going to help us w/ emergency procedures and aircraft performance in these emergency's. It's my opinion that they will be very mis-leading. X-planes is not a aerodynamic simulator btw, it still needs to use 'known' airfoil sections. Those who have relied on it to be such a simulator have paid the price. Personally, for instrumentation purposes, I prefer "On top". It seem's to be a nice well rounded simulator for these types of practice proceedures. That being said, it's no replacement for the real thing.. [actual or under the 'hood']. JJ -- For archives and unsub http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/lml/List.html **************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) -------------------------------1220193068 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jarrett,
 
Please don't think that I am picking on you - it is just very easy for=20= me=20 to respond to the issues you raise.  I hope the dialogue is useful to y= ou=20 and other low time 200/300 series Lancair pilots.
 
The "green arc" contains no magic for a Lancair - if you have built you= r=20 Lancair with efficiency in mind you will find that you are frequently flying= in=20 the yellow arc and you will have to think about the power setting on a desce= nt=20 in order not to pass the Vne line (my God the GPS ground speed can really wi= nd=20 up!).  To me, every flight is a learning experience, especially its=20 termination in successfully landing.
 
I agree that one should be able to feel the airplane, especially at low= =20 speeds.  The AOA has helped me greatly to associate those feeling=20= with=20 air speeds and performance.  I am no longer totally dependent on=20 it.  However, while a total electrical failure has a remote possibility= , my=20 airplane is equipped with an Essential Bus system and the complete range of=20 electrical system monitoring devices including a red light should the altern= ator=20 fail and a dedicated backup battery for the Electronic Ignition.  One m= ust=20 consider single point failures in aircraft systems and their backups in orde= r to=20 avoid using those finely honed superior pilot skills.  The construction= of=20 such protections is precisely one of the great advantages available to those= =20 that build their own airplane.
 
DOn't worry, "mushy" means different things to different people but the= se=20 Lancairs all get mushy at slower speeds - the difference is where the CG is=20 located.  The CAFE report dealt with only one custom built Lancair. The= ir=20 comments are generally valid but lets look at the variations in pitch manage= ment=20 that you haven't even thought about.  The easy one is the change brough= t=20 about installing the bigger horizontal, although there are differences since= not=20 all of those airplanes installed the long engine mount that addressed=20 the rearward CG issue.  The first change made by many (not=20 all) 300 builders was to shorten the elevator bell crank from 4" to=20 3".  This reduced the stick throw 25%, increased the sensitivity (less=20 stick movement, same elevator movement) and increased the force necessary to= =20 move the elevator (a benefit).  Of course this had an effect on the spr= ing=20 biased trim system requiring stiffer springs.  Then there are those of=20= use=20 that use the Reichel geared trim wheel in that environment rather than the=20 Lancair supplied crucifix/friction system.    The there are t= hose=20 that use electric servo operated trim tabs instead of the spring system.&nbs= p;=20 Why do I mention these variations?  Because they all mean differences=20 in controlling the pitch in different flight regimes.  The spring=20 system is exerting force in one direction and that makes it easy to move the= =20 stick in the opposite direction.  I don't know if tabs have that same=20 feel.  Also remember there is a bob weight to increase the force=20 required as the effective G's increase.  Which of these options have yo= u=20 chosen?  
 
Yes, one should know how the approach to stall feels so that you don't=20= go=20 there.  Make sure you have plenty of altitude when training to get this= =20 feeling.
 
There are not enough Lancair experienced trainers, especially in the=20 midwest (Jeff, are you the only one?).  Better you use much of the= =20 flyoff 40 hours to learn how to land the powered lawn dart.
 
Your C150 experience will do you no good in a Lancair.  Your Lanca= ir=20 should be placarded against intentional spins.  There is no terminal=20 velocity in a Lancair (unlike the underpowered draggy C150). Please don= 't=20 do this with a "passenger", no one has successfully jumped from a Lancair (a= t=20 least that I know of).
 
Jarrett, good luck with the building and flying your future Lancair.
 
Scott Krueger
 
 
In a message dated 8/31/2008 6:50:41 A.M. Central Daylight Time,=20 hjjohnson@sasktel.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>

Thanks for the well written reply Scott. I'm fairly thick skinn= ed=20 fella, so no worries.. it's more just a  humorus closing for me=20 :-).  Yes there is no question I'm a low time Lancair pilot. I carry=20= just=20 under 2k in my book but zero in a Lnc anything..

I guess my basic feel for anything I fly is that I want to be=20 comfortable in all area's of the green arc. I know we rarely ever get into= the=20 bottom of the arc and we can be proud to own something which does really=20 travel.  We never plan to have emergency's or in-flight problems= but=20 in reality they do happen. Just as we'll plan and train for other emergenc= y's=20 we also need to train to fly the airframe to either end of the spectrum. W= e=20 need to know what our max demonstrated speed is for max rate decents durin= g=20 pressurization failures, for the same reason. If we 'know the proceedure'=20= but=20 have never seen it even demonstrated.. let alone practiced it..  we a= re=20 more than likely going to mess it up somehow [as Ted mentioned].  My=20 point about Bob was simply that Bob did practice his routine and knew it t= he=20 letter. He could nail it time and again because of this.. if we practice a= nd=20 know our airplane.. we to can nail it when the problem arises. =20

Instrumentation is an excellent tool to utilize and assist in=20 keeping the right side down and things going smoothly, however we also nee= d to=20 be able to fly the a/c by feel.. to a certain degree. If a person had an=20 electical fire and had to do a forced approach w/ no electrics.. an electr= ical=20 AOA isn't going to be there to help a guy out. 

We are so used to flying the 'store bought' GA airframes that w= e=20 also fall into the trap, thinking that they behave in the same way, but do= =20 they? You mentioned a mushy feel to the controls. This is true for maybe 9= 0%=20 of airframes but it may not be for my airframe or the next guy's. You'd=20 mentioned that since every single Lancair is different from the next, and=20= that=20 only makes it that much more nesc that we know 'our' airframe. The neighbo= urs=20 might stall at 65 'cause he built his super light.. while the neighbour on= the=20 other side might have a 75 stall speed.. One thing I've read [and I h= ave=20 no experiance so maybe this isn't the case.. clue me in.. if it isn't]&nbs= p;in=20 CAFE reports is the very little pitch 'feel' there is in a Lnc3xx. Th= e=20 stick forces were measured in the single digit #'s.. and less than 5 if I=20 remember correctly. This would lead me to believe that the stick 'fee= l'=20 in regards to on the edge of a stall.. would be a very difficult=20 indicator..   but then I've never experianced it to comment to=20 deeply. 

The bottom line is we need to know our a/c and how it behaves.=20= We=20 need to train for the unexpected and the unplanned.. If we know exactly ho= w=20 our airframe behaves right up to the early loss of lift at the beginning o= f=20 the stall, that is all we can do.. but we need to know it cold.. =

It was previously mentioned that if this accident rate happened= in=20 the military, heads would roll, training would be implimented and the prob= lem=20 resolved. The problem would not be resolved by telling the pilots not to f= ly=20 in this region of the 'normal category' envelope 'cause it 'could' kill yo= u..=20 rather.. they train the pilots how the a/c behaves there.. how to handle i= t=20 etc..  The more we know.. and train for it the better pilots we'll be= .=20

Back in the day I used to fly our C150 back to the=20 farm regularly. Often just to keep things interesting, I'd cruis= e=20 climb from the city all the way all the way out. I'd get to 7-8k= =20 before I got to the farm, then I'd spin it down 2-3000 ft and after=20 recovering, do a full forced approach to the farm strip [engine at=20 idle].  It didn't make me an expert pilot but it certainly didn't hur= t my=20 proficiency either. Back then, every time I went flying I practiced some=20 emergency or pushed myself to improve in some defined area. I think it hel= ped=20 and I still try to do that even when I have passengers on board.. Mind you= ..=20 I'm not pulling the mixture  or anything. It's still good practice=20 to try and recite an emergency proceedure.. [smoke in the cabin] and=20= then=20 pull the check list and see how I did.. This stuff isn't hard.. but it mak= es=20 us better pilots, safer pilots. It's our due diligence, our=20 responsibility as PIC's.

Anyway, I think we all have our own approach to this issue, I h= ope=20 plans are implimented,  some training is completed and results are=20 produced. I'd like to be able to afford to insure my airframe someday in t= he=20 future when it's finally ready to fly. :-) 

Best

Jarrett Johnson

 

Ps- I agree w/ you on simulators..  the run of the mill PC Simulat= or=20 isn't going to help us w/ emergency procedures and aircraft performance in= =20 these emergency's. It's my opinion that they will be very mis-leading.=20 X-planes is not a aerodynamic simulator btw, it still needs to use 'known'= =20 airfoil sections. Those who have relied on it to be such a simulator have=20= paid=20 the price. Personally, for instrumentation purposes, I prefer "On top". It= =20 seem's to be a nice well rounded simulator for these types of practice=20 proceedures. That being said, it's no replacement for the real thing.. [ac= tual=20 or under the 'hood']. JJ

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