X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 07:52:06 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from imo-d22.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.208] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3101760 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:58:55 -0400 Received: from VTAILJEFF@aol.com by imo-d22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r10.8.) id q.d4d.2e458128 (37169) for ; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com (smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com [205.188.249.146]) by cia-ma04.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.11) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMA048-913148ba16fb331; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:58:51 -0400 Received: from webmail-da03 (webmail-da03.webmail.aol.com [205.188.212.198]) by smtprly-da03.mx.aol.com (v121_r2.12) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYDA032-5bbb48ba16f88a; Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:58:48 -0400 References: X-Original-To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents X-Original-Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:58:48 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 68.188.79.57 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: vtailjeff@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CAD935017CF69C_BF8_760_webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 38575-STANDARD Received: from 68.188.79.57 by webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com (205.188.212.198) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:58:48 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <8CAD93500CC8976-BF8-3A1@webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CAD935017CF69C_BF8_760_webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" This thread started out by talking about the recent spate of accidents and w= hat we could do to address it. Then we got off on the subject of videos and=20= low passes. Meanwhile, while we have been chatting on the internet, three mo= re Lancairs bit the dust in the last ten days, fortunately with pride being=20= the only injury. One IVP (N516DB) went off the runway in Hays, KS on 8/25. A= 360-- N6114 experienced a gear collapse (hard landing?) also on 8/25 in Van= couver, WA and another 360 (N360J) landed gear up in Windsor Locks, CT.=C2= =A0We are having a horrible year. Dennis is correct, if this were a military= squadron, heads would be rolling. Training has been addressed here=C2=A0ad nauseum and it is evident we could=20= all benefit from more training, but training is worthless without pilot disc= ipline. Some of our pilots have the "right stuff" and some don't and some do= n't. There seems to be an odd dichotomy of pilot types in this group of Lanc= air pilots. This division of the GA pilot community is not restricted to Lan= cairs-- we just see the microcosm of it through this list. On the one hand (= Group A) there are those who are well trained, follow regulations, stays cur= rent, stays proficient and pretty much stays in the middle of the air. As Br= ent Regan says--they don't let their kid fly the airplane. The opposing grou= p (Group B) seems to have a bit of a rebel inside. They want the freedom fly= ing offers without the responsibility. Some do not know what the federal air= regulations are, don't like to f ollow them anyway,=C2=A0 and some don't care--but when things are going badl= y this second group seems to be the ones who blame the airplane.=C2=A0 This=20= is unfortunate and is currently causing others (FAA, =C2=A0EAA and the insur= ance industry) to take a hard look at us.=20 What will happen? As I said earlier these three groups (FAA, EAA & insurance= ) really do not care about you or me. The FAA loves to regulate--so guess wh= at is coming? More regulations. Guess who will pay for it? All of you. The F= AA will likely (my prediction based on the rumor mill) make training mandato= ry for you to operate your Lancair as PIC. How much will this cost you? Curr= ent rates run between $1000 and $3000 dollars.=C2=A0Are you happy yet? Norma= lly I would be upset but since I am a CFI and I teach in the Lancair group--= =C2=A0I want to=C2=A0thank you very very much.=20 The insurance industry will make insurance unavaliable or very expensive for= those who can get it. AIG--who is the largest Lancair undrerwriter-- is mak= ing everyone resubmit an application. They will then cherry pick the insured= (remember those of us with over 1000 hours in type that have 0 Lancair acci= dents?). They will be able to get insurance--at a much higher premium. Those= with under 100 hours in type are probably screwed. Still happy? BTW --did y= ou know an Eclipse insurance policy is cheaper than a IVP policy? Think because you have a Legacy or a 360 you won't see an insurance bump?--t= hink again. The IV & IVP is only 30% of the accident total. Keep piling up 320's, 360's, ES's and Legacies and you will be in the same=20= insurance boat. Speaking of totals, as=C2=A0of 2004 Lancair had sold 1870 ki= ts (see Lancair website). 1077 Lancairs are currently registered with the FA= A. There have been over 150 Lancair accidents in the U.S. and elsewhere. I w= ill breakdown the accidents, causes, types, etc. tomorrow. If Marv is kind e= nough, I will post the OSH powerpoint on the LML website. Decide for yoursel= ves what is causing the accidents. So bottom line: if you have a IV or IVP the group B pilots will likely cost=20= you over $5000 this year. Thank them next time you see them! I know I will. Jeff Edwards CFI LIVP=20 -----Original Message----- From: Taylor, David To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 1:55 pm Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents Dennis, =C2=A0 Well stated! =C2=A0 I would say in summary regarding IMC in general that you should not be flyin= g one of these fast airplanes unless you are INSTRUMENT RATED, and are CURRE= NT ON INSTRUMENTS.=C2=A0 At the very very least you should be able to execut= e a 180 degree turn in IMC easily and comfortably.=C2=A0 Inadvertent IMC is=20= a killer in these machines. =C2=A0 On t-storms =E2=80=93 as was just stated (cant repeat this enough) THOUGHLY=20= UNDERSTAND ATC=E2=80=99S ROLE IN T-STORM AVOIDENCE.=C2=A0 Read this article=20= before you take another breath:=C2=A0 http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?Con= tentBlockID=3Da5f34e46-8512-437f-8cf4-28b8ac61804e& =C2=A0 Can anybody not underst and how planes go into T-storms after reading this? =C2=A0 I would almost say that if you=E2=80=99re flying in the ATC system IMC, you=20= should only do so if you have on-board weather. =C2=A0 Dave T. Legacy RG =C2=A0 From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Denni= s Johnson Sent: Wed, August 27, 2008 21:38 To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Lancair Accidents =C2=A0 Like everyone else, I=E2=80=99ve been troubled by the seemingly large number= of Lancair accidents since I started building my Legacy in 2004.=C2=A0 And=20= like everyone else, I=E2=80=99ve given it a lot of thought.=C2=A0 Despite th= at, I really can=E2=80=99t propose a solution with any confidence that it wo= uld help.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 But this is becoming an emergency.=C2=A0 Back in my Air Force days, long bef= ore it got this bad, wing commanders would have been fired, airplanes ground= ed for inspections, and pilots grounded until they received additional train= ing.=C2=A0 The current situation is unacceptable.=C2=A0 As a result, even th= ough I have no confidence in my ideas on this, here is what I would propose=20= for discussion.=C2=A0 Maybe there=E2=80=99s the seed of a good idea here; ma= ybe not. =C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 Flight into Thunderstorms Leading to In-Flight Breakup =C2=A0 Since we all know that we shouldn=E2=80=99t fly into a thunderstorm, I=E2= =80=99d suggest assembling a volunteer panel of instructor pilots to analyze= the Lancair thunderstorm accidents.=C2=A0 The objective is to understand wh= at specific chain of events=3D2 0lead good pilots to do something that turned out to be so obviously wrong.= =C2=A0 Understanding the details of how it happens is the first step towards= structuring a response to prevent it. =C2=A0 These accidents are really baffling to me, which means I don=E2=80=99t under= stand them.=C2=A0 And as an instrument pilot, this is something I need to un= derstand.=C2=A0 For example, were they flying in IMC and unknowingly flew in= to an embedded thunderstorm they couldn=E2=80=99t see?=C2=A0 Did they see th= e thunderstorm and fly into it anyway, not recognizing it?=C2=A0 Or had they= allowed themselves to get into a position from which they had no alternativ= e but to fly into a thunderstorm?=C2=A0 Did they use onboard systems for thu= nderstorm avoidance that weren=E2=80=99t adequate for that?=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Telling each other to avoid flying into thunderstorms isn=E2=80=99t working.= =C2=A0 Understanding the specifics of what lead to these accidents might rev= eal circumstances for which we are unprepared. =C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 Stall/Spin Close to the Ground =C2=A0 While I don=E2=80=99t understand the circumstances leading to flying into a=20= thunderstorm, the cause of the stall/spin accident seems clearer.=C2=A0 IMO,= the stall/spin accident includes a lack of basic airmanship skills.=C2=A0 T= wo fatal accident examples are Legacies that took off with the canopy open a= nd it seems possible the pilots forgot rule #1 of any emergency:=C2=A0 =E2= =80=9Cfly the airplane.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Other examples include flying too slo= w in the traffic pattern, probably trying to stay behind slow traffic, and then not recognizing the start of a stall.=C2=A0 O= r pulling too many Gs in the final turn to avoid overshoot.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Maybe HPAT could publish a number of specific lesson plans for Lancair pilot= s to fly for self-training.=C2=A0 HPAT could make the syllabus available for= free in the hope that it might be good publicity for HPAT and they might ge= t back their cost through more HPAT training. =C2=A0 Each lesson plan would be a short, fifteen minute exercise on a skill that w= ill help avoid stall/spin accidents.=C2=A0 They would be intended for a solo= pilot to use to maintain his skill level in a critical area that we demonst= rate too often that we have allowed to decay.=C2=A0 Instead of just flying f= rom here to that next hamburger, spend fifteen minutes enroute going through= a specific lesson exercise that focuses on one specific skill and then reco= rd it in the pilot=E2=80=99s log book.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Use peer pressure to instill an atmosphere that continued training is what g= ood pilots do.=C2=A0 Have monthly local lunchtime Lancair fly-ins that inclu= de going around the table and giving each pilot the chance to tell which les= son plan they=E2=80=99ve done since the last meeting and how it went.=C2=A0=20= Create the sense that this is what good pilots do and if you=E2=80=99re not=20= doing it, there=E2=80=99s something wrong with you.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 It won=E2=80=99t work for everyone, but this sort of thing worked in the Air= Force, where nearly every pilot wanted to be one o f the top pilots in the squadron and would jump through whatever hoops were=20= necessary to achieve it.=C2=A0 Even if it only works for half of us, that co= uld result in fewer accidents.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 For pilots who didn=E2=80=99t get HPAT or equivalent training at the start,=20= they would do the lesson plans with a qualified instructor or experienced La= ncair pilot in their local area until they acquire the skills.=C2=A0 Once th= e skills are acquired, they would continue the lesson plans solo to maintain= the skills, which would continue as long as the person was flying a Lancair= .=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Fly safe, Dennis Legacy, 176 hours ----------MB_8CAD935017CF69C_BF8_760_webmail-da03.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" This thread started out by talking about the recent spate of accidents and w= hat we could do to address it. Then we got off on the subject of videos and=20= low passes. Meanwhile, while we have been chatting on the internet, three mo= re Lancairs bit the dust in the last ten days, fortunately with pride being=20= the only injury. One IVP (N516DB) went off the runway in Hays, KS on 8/25. A= 360-- N6114 experienced a gear collapse (hard landing?) also on 8/25 in Van= couver, WA and another 360 (N360J) landed gear up in Windsor Locks, CT. = ;We are having a horrible year. Dennis is correct, if this were a military s= quadron, heads would be rolling.

Training has been addressed here ad nauseum and it is evident we could=20= all benefit from more training, but training is worthless without pilot disc= ipline. Some of our pilots have the "right stuff" and some don't and some do= n't. There seems to be an odd dichotomy of pilot types in this group of Lanc= air pilots. This division of the GA pilot community is not restricted to Lan= cairs-- we just see the microcosm of it through this list. On the one hand (= Group A) there are those who are well trained, follow regulations, stays cur= rent, stays proficient and pretty much stays in the middle of the air. As Br= ent Regan says--they don't let their kid fly the airplane. The opposing grou= p (Group B) seems to have a bit of a rebel inside. They want the freedom fly= ing offers without the responsibility. Some do not know what the federal air= regulations are, don't like20to follow them anyway,  and some don't ca= re--but when things are going badly this second group seems to be the ones w= ho blame the airplane.  This is unfortunate and is currently causing ot= hers (FAA,  EAA and the insurance industry) to take a hard look at us.=20=

What will happen? As I said earlier these three groups (FAA, EAA & insur= ance) really do not care about you or me. The FAA loves to regulate--so gues= s what is coming? More regulations. Guess who will pay for it? All of you. T= he FAA will likely (my prediction based on the rumor mill) make training man= datory for you to operate your Lancair as PIC. How much will this cost you?=20= Current rates run between $1000 and $3000 dollars. Are you happy yet? N= ormally I would be upset but since I am a CFI and I teach in the Lancair gro= up-- I want to thank you very very much.

The insurance industry will make insurance unavaliable or very expensive for= those who can get it. AIG--who is the largest Lancair undrerwriter-- is mak= ing everyone resubmit an application. They will then cherry pick the insured= (remember those of us with over 1000 hours in type that have 0 Lancair acci= dents?). They will be able to get insurance--at a much higher premium. Those= with under 100 hours in type are probably screwed. Still happy? BTW --did y= ou know an Eclipse insurance policy is cheaper than a IVP policy?

Think because you have a Legacy or a 360 you won't see an insurance bump?--t= hink again. The IV & IVP is o nly 30% of the accident total. Keep piling up 320's, 360's, ES's and Legacie= s and you will be in the same insurance boat. Speaking of totals, as of= 2004 Lancair had sold 1870 kits (see Lancair website). 1077 Lancairs are cu= rrently registered with the FAA. There have been over 150 Lancair accidents=20= in the U.S. and elsewhere. I will breakdown the accidents, causes, types, et= c. tomorrow. If Marv is kind enough, I will post the OSH powerpoint on the L= ML website. Decide for yourselves what is causing the accidents.

So bottom line: if you have a IV or IVP the group B pilots will likely cost=20= you over $5000 this year. Thank them next time you see them! I know I will.<= br>
Jeff Edwards
CFI
LIVP





-----Original Message-----
From: Taylor, David <dtaylor@crescentpark.com>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 1:55 pm
Subject: [LML] Re: Lancair Accidents

Dennis,
 
Well stated!
 
I would say in summary regarding IMC in gene= ral that you should not be flying one of these fast airplanes unless you are= INSTRUMENT RATED, and are CURRENT ON INSTRUMENTS.  At the very very le= ast you should be ab le to execute a 180 degree turn in IMC easily and comfortably.  Inadver= tent IMC is a killer in these machines.
 
On t-storms =E2=80=93 as was just stated (ca= nt repeat this enough) THOUGHLY UNDERSTAND ATC=E2=80=99S ROLE IN T-STORM AVO= IDENCE.  Read this article before you take another breath:  http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C= ontentBlockID=3Da5f34e46-8512-437f-8cf4-28b8ac61804e&
 
Can anybody not understand how planes go int= o T-storms after reading this?
 
I would almost say that if you=E2=80=99re fl= ying in the ATC system IMC, you should only do so if you have on-board weath= er.
 
Dave T.
Legacy RG
 
From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis=20= Johnson
Sent: Wed, August 27, 2008 21:38
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Lancair Accidents
 
Like everyone else, I=E2=80=99ve been troubled by the= seemingly large number of Lancair accidents since I started building my Leg= acy in 2004.  And like everyone else, I=E2=80=99ve given it a lot of th= ought.  Despite that, I really can=E2=80=99t propose a solution with an= y confidence that it would help. 
 
But this is becoming an emergency.  Back in my A= ir Force days, long before it got this bad, wing commanders would have been=20= fired, airplanes grounded for in spections, and pilots grounded until they received additional training. = ; The current situation is unacceptable.  As a result, even though I ha= ve no confidence in my ideas on this, here is what I would propose for discu= ssion.  Maybe there=E2=80=99s the seed of a good idea here; maybe not.<= /div>
 
1.  Flight into Thunderstorms Leading to In-Flig= ht Breakup
 
Since we all know that we shouldn=E2=80=99t fly into=20= a thunderstorm, I=E2=80=99d suggest assembling a volunteer panel of instruct= or pilots to analyze the Lancair thunderstorm accidents.  The objective= is to understand what specific chain of events lead good pilots to do somet= hing that turned out to be so obviously wrong.  Understanding the detai= ls of how it happens is the first step towards structuring a response to pre= vent it.
 
These accidents are really baffling to me, which mean= s I don=E2=80=99t understand them.  And as an instrument pilot, this is= something I need to understand.  For example, were they flying in IMC=20= and unknowingly flew into an embedded thunderstorm they couldn=E2=80=99t see= ?  Did they see the thunderstorm and fly into it anyway, not recognizin= g it?  Or had they allowed themselves to get into a position from which= they had no alternative but to fly into a thunderstorm?  Did they use=20= onboard systems for thunderstorm avoidance th at weren=E2=80=99t adequate for that? 
 
Telling each other to avoid flying into thunderstorms= isn=E2=80=99t working.  Understanding the specifics of what lead to th= ese accidents might reveal circumstances for which we are unprepared.
 
2.  Stall/Spin Close to the Ground
 
While I don=E2=80=99t understand the circumstances le= ading to flying into a thunderstorm, the cause of the stall/spin accident se= ems clearer.  IMO, the stall/spin accident includes a lack of basic air= manship skills.  Two fatal accident examples are Legacies that took off= with the canopy open and it seems possible the pilots forgot rule #1 of any= emergency:  =E2=80=9Cfly the airplane.=E2=80=9D  Other examples i= nclude flying too slow in the traffic pattern, probably trying to stay behin= d slow traffic, and then not recognizing the start of a stall.  Or pull= ing too many Gs in the final turn to avoid overshoot. 
 
Maybe HPAT could publish a number of specific lesson=20= plans for Lancair pilots to fly for self-training.  HPAT could make the= syllabus available for free in the hope that it might be good publicity for= HPAT and they might get back their cost through more HPAT training.
 
Each lesson plan would=3D2 0be a short, fifteen minute exercise on a skill that will help avoid stall/s= pin accidents.  They would be intended for a solo pilot to use to maint= ain his skill level in a critical area that we demonstrate too often that we= have allowed to decay.  Instead of just flying from here to that next=20= hamburger, spend fifteen minutes enroute going through a specific lesson exe= rcise that focuses on one specific skill and then record it in the pilot=E2= =80=99s log book. 
 
Use peer pressure to instill an atmosphere that conti= nued training is what good pilots do.  Have monthly local lunchtime Lan= cair fly-ins that include going around the table and giving each pilot the c= hance to tell which lesson plan they=E2=80=99ve done since the last meeting=20= and how it went.  Create the sense that this is what good pilots do and= if you=E2=80=99re not doing it, there=E2=80=99s something wrong with you.&n= bsp;
 
It won=E2=80=99t work for everyone, but this sort of=20= thing worked in the Air Force, where nearly every pilot wanted to be one of=20= the top pilots in the squadron and would jump through whatever hoops were ne= cessary to achieve it.  Even if it only works for half of us, that coul= d result in fewer accidents.    
 
For pilots who didn=E2=80=99t get HPAT or equivalent=20= training at the start, they wou ld do the lesson plans with a qualified instructor or experienced Lancair pi= lot in their local area until they acquire the skills.  Once the skills= are acquired, they would continue the lesson plans solo to maintain the ski= lls, which would continue as long as the person was flying a Lancair. =20=
 
Fly safe,
Dennis
Legacy, 176 hours
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