X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:51:07 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com ([205.158.62.67] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with ESMTP id 3024330 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:37:15 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.158.62.67; envelope-from=cfi@instructor.net Received: from wfilter2.us4.outblaze.com.int (wfilter2.us4.outblaze.com.int [192.168.8.90]) by webmail-outgoing.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix) with QMQP id 429281800128 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:36:35 +0000 (GMT) X-OB-Received: from unknown (205.158.62.80) by wfilter2.us4.outblaze.com; 13 Jul 2008 20:36:35 -0000 Received: by ws1-1a.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 0C44983BE2; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:36:35 +0000 (GMT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_----------=_1215981394215833" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Ron Galbraith" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Original-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:36:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Accidents Received: from [68.32.174.130] by ws1-1a.us4.outblaze.com with http for cfi@instructor.net; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:36:34 -0400 X-Originating-Ip: 68.32.174.130 X-Originating-Server: ws1-1a.us4.outblaze.com In-Reply-To: References: X-Original-Message-Id: <20080713203635.0C44983BE2@ws1-1a.us4.outblaze.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_----------=_1215981394215833 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'd like to add a little to what Jeff and Charlie is saying. The ARTCC's use WARP, which is nothing more than a mosaic NEXRAD very much like XM or WSI. As a matter of fact it's not as good as either of those services.=20= =20 It only shows 3 levels of precipitation, and is also not real time weather. The lag is about 8 minutes, but can be much longer. If you are relying on the Center controller to vector you around a thunderstorm, you are potentially getting into more trouble than you would on your own.=20 Really guys, you gotta use visual to get around Thunderstorms and give an extra wide margin. ATC is not required to keep you out of the weather it's up to you to do that. They are required to advise you as to what they see in front of you by phraseology such as: "Lancair zero 9 Lima, moderate to heavy precipitation 12 o'clock 15 miles, extends 20 miles along your rounte". If you want them to help you, then it is up to you to ask them and they will vector you around what they are seeing if that's what you are requesting. There is a new system that is in prototype right now that will be much better, and predicts the path of storms that will be available to ATC, but that will be a while before it's usable. I use XM on every flight I take and find it to be very useful, but I don't rely on just that. It's very easy to use it as a weather radar type system, but it isn't. A great flight planning tool, but that's it. Your Lancair may be equiped with deice, have a NEXRAD service, stormscope, etc, but that doesn't mean you can fly into a thunderstrom. If these things are giving you the "I can fly anywhere in any weather" attitude, then please do us all a favor and take all that stuff off because if you don't, you are about to die.=20 Ron Galbraith HPAT instructor Charlie has great advice here. We could probably cut the IVP accident rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering Cu. You are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So your options are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that develop in the summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts. You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot visually see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these things. Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag of up to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicted or more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement, which is very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these things or plan a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side. Descisions to go between cells in a line should not be taken lightly. Can you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other side? How wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? How can you tell? What are the tops of the cu in the break? What is on the other side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you escape route if you poke your nose in it and it closes up? I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspenders). There are differences between the two nexrad images that are important. One may be painting orange while the other is green. I choose the most conservative route of the tow shown. If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada or Alaska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of CONUS. Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year. I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I landed in St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes after I landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady flew into that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wreckage was scattered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he penetrated the storm. Living in St. Louis has made every trip this year one with thunderstorms. I have not topped one yet. Be careful out there! Jeff --_----------=_1215981394215833 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" I'd like to add a little to what Jeff and Charlie is saying.  The ARTC= C's use WARP, which is nothing more than a mosaic NEXRAD very much like XM = or WSI.  As a matter of fact it's not as good as either of those servi= ces.   It only shows 3 levels of precipitation, and is also not r= eal time weather.  The lag is about 8 minutes, but can be much longer.=   If you are relying on the Center controller to vector you around a t= hunderstorm, you are potentially getting into more trouble than you would o= n your own.  Really guys, you gotta use visual to get around Thunderst= orms and give an extra wide margin.  ATC is not required to keep you o= ut of the weather it's up to you to do that.  They are required to adv= ise you as to what they see in front of you by phraseology such as:  "= Lancair zero 9 Lima, moderate to heavy precipitation 12 o'clock 15 miles, e= xtends 20 miles along your rounte".  If you want them to help you, the= n it is up to you to ask them and they will vector you around what they are= seeing if that's what you are requesting.   There is a new syste= m that is in prototype right now that will be much better, and predicts the= path of storms that will be available to ATC, but that will be a while bef= ore it's usable.  I use XM on every flight I take and find it to be ve= ry useful, but I don't rely on just that.  It's very easy to use it as= a weather radar type system, but it isn't.  A great flight planning t= ool, but that's it.  Your Lancair may be equiped with deice, have a NE= XRAD service, stormscope, etc, but that doesn't mean you can fly into a thu= nderstrom.  If these things are giving you the "I can fly anywhere in = any weather" attitude, then please do us all a favor and take all that stuf= f off because if you don't, you are about to die. 

Ron Galbrai= th
HPAT instructor

 
  

Charlie has great advice here. We could probably cut the IVP= =20 accident rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering Cu= . You=20 are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So your op= tions=20 are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that develop in the= =20 summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts.
 
You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot=20 visually see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these= =20 things. Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag= of=20 up to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicted o= r=20 more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement, whic= h is=20 very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these things or plan= a=20 very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side.
 
Descisions to go between cells in a line should not be taken ligh= tly.=20 Can you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other side? Ho= w=20 wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? How can y= ou=20 tell? What are the tops of the cu in the break? What is on the ot= her=20 side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you escape route = if=20 you poke your nose in it and it closes up?
 
I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspend= ers).=20 There are differences between the two nexrad images that are important= . One=20 may be painting orange while the other is green. I choose the most conserva= tive=20 route of the tow shown.
 
If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada = or=20 Alaska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of CO= NUS.=20 Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year.
 
I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I lande= d in=20 St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes after = I=20 landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady flew int= o=20 that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wreckage was scat= tered=20 over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he penetrated the st= orm.=20
 
Living in St. Louis  has made every trip this year one with=20 thunderstorms. I have not topped one yet.
 
Be careful out there!
 
Jeff
 



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