X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 07:51:07 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([216.252.111.223] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.5) with SMTP id 3024406 for lml@lancaironline.net; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:00:08 -0400 Received: (qmail 10724 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Jul 2008 21:59:54 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=MXFy35zKuAlbkOCslHXHN+cgnzdPDOQOOKYXbW7Srhc1++30YsR+eGbOKoCBGvwPFYEMnHM6f0d+ADdQ5wZpVzF1RRAcFpzMqzTxhuoLTkzbPaqwBdhAbR0V2Ki7yqaUUWRWb1owbgmP8l62L5DpD5gc0Jr2RdnCMmxCndGRQEw=; Received: from [68.188.100.236] by web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:59:54 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.199 X-Original-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 14:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: m miriani Reply-To: lancair33@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Accidents X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1186748697-1215986394=:10501" X-Original-Message-ID: <477229.10501.qm@web57207.mail.re3.yahoo.com> --0-1186748697-1215986394=:10501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff =A0 Any info on these recent lancair accidents in regards to how many of the pi= lots had some type of annual=A0HPAT or similar=A0training, or any at all in= their IVP? I have been to school twice over the years and havent even fini= shed the aircraft yet. Most valuable training I have had and opened my eyes= about how the lancairs respond without thrust. It is a managable handfull.= I wouldnt consider flying it without annual training. =A0 Matt Miriani IVP Hoping to fly this summer --- On Sun, 7/13/08, VTAILJEFF@aol.com wrote: From: VTAILJEFF@aol.com Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Sunday, July 13, 2008, 1:14 PM Charlie has great=A0advice=A0here. We could probably cut the IVP accident r= ate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering Cu. You are = NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So your option= s are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that develop in th= e summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts.=20 =A0 You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot visuall= y see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these things= . Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag of up= to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicted or = more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement, whic= h is very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these things or= plan a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side. =A0 Descisions to go between cells in a line should not=A0be taken lightly. Can= you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other side? How w= ide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? How can yo= u tell?=A0What are the tops of the=A0cu in the break? What is on the other = side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you escape route = if you poke your nose in it and it closes up?=20 =A0 I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspenders).= There are differences between the two=A0nexrad images that are important. = One may be painting orange while the other is green. I choose the most cons= ervative route of the tow shown. =A0 If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada or Al= aska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of CONU= S. Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year. =A0 I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I landed in = St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes after = I landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady flew i= nto that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wreckage was = scattered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he penetra= ted the storm.=20 =A0 Living in St. Louis=A0 has made every trip this year one with thunderstorms= . I have not topped one yet.=20 =A0 Be careful out there! =A0 Jeff =A0 In a message dated 7/12/2008 7:47:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, charliekoh= ler@yahoo.com writes: =A0 Hi Colyn, IMHO the safest approach to summertime towering cumulus is to stay VMC. On = top- is best if the air is not electrically charged -- if not able-- go dow= n to 3000 feet-- below the bases (VMC) (check terrain clearance)-- and alwa= ys be vigilant for lightning and hail on the downwind side-- yes--stay out of the green (if only to protect your paint).=20 And in regards to diversions-- go early when the heading corrections are 10= to 20=B0. Not when you're in a box canyon and you need a 90=B0 to a 180=B0= course change. You'll notice that large holes and openings from 100 miles = out will close up by the time you get there. And it would've been better to= take that 20=B0 heading cut to go around the up wind side before you got t= here. Saves time too. =A0 And=A0=A0Thanks-- Charlie K. See=A0me on the Web at=A0 www.Lancair-IV.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Colyn Case at earthlink To: lml@lancaironline.net Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2008 5:11:54 PM Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents #yiv2087898517 DIV { MARGIN:0px;} Charlie, thanks for this. =A0 Are you proposing no IMC up high period or just staying 2X recommended dist= ance from what you see on xm?=A0 (maybe even staying out of all green if yo= u are high and imc). =A0 Colyn =A0 Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in you= r area - Check out TourTracker.com!=0A=0A=0A --0-1186748697-1215986394=:10501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff

 

Any info on these recent lancair accidents in regards to how many of the= pilots had some type of annual HPAT or similar training, or any = at all in their IVP? I have been to school twice over the years and havent = even finished the aircraft yet. Most valuable training I have had and opene= d my eyes about how the lancairs respond without thrust. It is a managable = handfull. I wouldnt consider flying it without annual training.

 

Matt Miriani

IVP Hoping to fly this summer

--- On Sun, 7/13/08, VTAILJEFF@a= ol.com <VTAILJEFF@aol.com> wrote:

From: VTAILJEFF@aol.com <VTAILJEFF@aol.com>
= Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Sunday, = July 13, 2008, 1:14 PM

Charlie has great advice here. We could probably cut the IVP= accident rate by 40% if we just stayed out of thunderstorms and towering C= u. You are NOT going to fly over these monsters. Not in a IVP-not ever. So = your options are to use your nexrad to plot an end around the lines that de= velop in the summer or stay below the bases and avoid the rain shafts.
 
You should not be using NEXRAD to fly between cells that you cannot vi= sually see. You have to be VFR to stay safe when operating close to these t= hings. Some of them are moving at over 60 knots. So if you have a time lag = of up to 10 minutes the cell may be ten miles away from where it is depicte= d or more. As Charlie said, the NEXRAD tells you the direction of movement,= which is very important in your decision making. Stay upwind of these thin= gs or plan a very wide excursion if you have to go on the downwind side.
 
Descisions to go between cells in a line should not be taken ligh= tly. Can you see all the way through the break to blue sky on the other sid= e? How wide is the break between cells? Is the break opening or closing? Ho= w can you tell? What are the tops of the cu in the break? What is= on the other side? Another cell? Is there any lightning close? What is you= escape route if you poke your nose in it and it closes up?
 
I fly with WSI on my Chelton and XM on my Garmin 396 (belt and suspend= ers). There are differences between the two nexrad images that are imp= ortant. One may be painting orange while the other is green. I choose the m= ost conservative route of the tow shown.
 
If you are planning on a trip outside the continental U.S. say Canada = or Alaska or the Bahamas-- the coverage does not extend very far outside of= CONUS. Two Lancairs found that out the hard way--both fatal, one this year= .
 
I was on the other side of the storm that Tom Brady flew into. I lande= d in St. Louis twenty minutes before he went down. Ten to fifteen minutes a= fter I landed the storm passed and the tornado sirens went off. Tom Brady f= lew into that. I talked to the FSDO here about his accident -- his wreckage= was scattered over four miles. He was flying in the low FL 20's when he pe= netrated the storm.
 
Living in St. Louis  has made every trip this year one with thund= erstorms. I have not topped one yet.
 
Be careful out there!
 
Jeff
 
In a message dated 7/12/2008 7:47:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, charl= iekohler@yahoo.com writes:
 
Hi Colyn,

IMHO the safest approach to summertime towering cumulus is to stay VMC. = On top- is best if the air is not electrically charged -- if not able-- go = down to 3000 feet-- below the bases (VMC) (check terrain clearance)-- and a= lways be vigilant for lightning and hail on the downwind side--
yes--sta= y out of the green (if only to protect your paint).

And in regards to diversions-- go early when the heading corrections are= 10 to 20=B0. Not when you're in a box canyon and you need a 90=B0 to a 180= =B0 course change. You'll notice that large holes and openings from 100 mil= es out will close up by the time you get there. And it would've been better= to take that 20=B0 heading cut to go around the up wind side before you go= t there. Saves time too.

 

And  Thanks--

Charlie K.
See me on the Web at  www.Lancair-IV.com
<= BR>
----- Original Message ----
From: Colyn Case at earthlink <= colyncase@earthlink.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Sent: Saturday,= July 12, 2008 5:11:54 PM
Subject: [LML] Re: Accidents

Charlie, thanks for this.
 
Are you proposing no IMC up high period or= just staying 2X recommended distance from what you see on xm?  (maybe= even staying out of all green if you are high and imc).
 
Colyn
 


Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in you= r area - Check out TourTracker.com!

=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1186748697-1215986394=:10501--