X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:58:23 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from bay0-omc2-s38.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.174] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2923714 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 15 May 2008 15:18:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=65.54.246.174; envelope-from=bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Received: from BAY128-W21 ([65.55.133.56]) by bay0-omc2-s38.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 15 May 2008 12:18:00 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: bill_kennedy_3@hotmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_9a90347c-1b83-4c1e-9885-e48c35dbef65_" X-Originating-IP: [65.182.241.193] From: Bill Kennedy X-Original-To: Lancair Mailing List Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:18:00 -0700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 May 2008 19:18:00.0815 (UTC) FILETIME=[6405FFF0:01C8B6C0] --_9a90347c-1b83-4c1e-9885-e48c35dbef65_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Terrance 60 degrees of bank with 100 kias or more isn't close to a stall AOA. I don'= t have an AOA indication (yet), but I can feel it in the stick long before = the wing fully stalls (long before equals 5+ knots). In my practice session= s, the most important parameter is the airspeed. I take a few moments to es= tablish the glide speed before I do anything else. In this situation "speed= is life". The 60 degrees of bank is really just a wag. What I mean is that my bank an= gle is well under max performance. It is very hard for me to do this on the= edge of a stall -- too many things for my brain to handle. In practice, a = more modest bank, like about 60 degrees, is a lot easier to manage and you = still get a marvelous turn rate with pretty close to minimum altitude lost = for a 180 degree turn. I've spent a fair amount of time flying at max performance with high AOA. I= don't do it a high g load in my LNC2, but I do a pretty aggressive slow fl= ight exercise (at altitude) in an effort to make coordinated flight second = nature. However, when I've tried this as a technique to return to land, it'= s just too many ducks to line up at the same time. Bill To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:27:03 -0400 From: troneill@charter.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Bill, right. Practice the =0A= procedure. How do yoou know how close your wing is to its stall =0A= AOA=0A= Terrence=0A= L235/320 N211AL=0A= =0A= =0A= ----- Original Message ----- =0A= From: =0A= Bill Kennedy =0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net =0A= Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 05:38 =0A= PM=0A= Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles =0A= and training=0A= =20 =0A= I practice these simulated engine failure turns =0A= from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to the runway than = in =0A= the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big difference betwee= n a =0A= maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experi= ence =0A= suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max performance, that timing th= e =0A= rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on the edge of a stal= l, so =0A= brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a ver= y =0A= brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS = and =0A= time my rollout perfectly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at =0A= low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your =0A= airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are =0A= to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all =0A= say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to the air= port =0A= when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often =0A= die. =0A= =0A= =0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:42 -0400 From: =0A= tom.gourley@verizon.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and =0A= training =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= "check this =0A= out for training..... http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html " =0A= =0A= I can't dispute the results shown in the video, =0A= but I gotta wonder. I understand that a steep bank with low airspeed = =0A= results in a high turn rate, i.e. completes the turn in the least amoun= t of =0A= time, but it leaves no margin for error. In a real engine out =0A= situation, high pucker factor, probably distractions, maybe some =0A= turbulence, lots of adrenaline, is a 60 degree bank with the stick =0A= pulled back so that you're getting some stall buffeting really a good = =0A= idea? I don't think so; especially not in a Lancair, and probably =0A= not in several other types of aircraft. A few years ago I watched the = =0A= pilot of a Mooney 231 attempt to make a steeply banked turn to a runway= =0A= after loss of power at low altitude. (Yes, it turned out to be fuel = =0A= exhaustion.) He was trying to turn a total of 120 - 135 degrees. =0A= He had turned about 90 degrees when the right wing and nose dropped =0A= noticeably; a stall-spin entry. He stopped the rotation =0A= immediately with opposite rudder but was too low to =0A= fully recover. The impact was fatal. I think an off airport =0A= landing with the aircraft under control would always be better than an = =0A= uncontrolled descent.=0A= =0A= Yes, I realize an AOA would help tremendously =0A= in this situation, assuming the pilot isn't completely paniced and is = =0A= capable of flying the AOA accurately. Training and practice sounds =0A= like a good idea.=0A= =0A= Tom Gourley=0A= =0A= =0A= --_9a90347c-1b83-4c1e-9885-e48c35dbef65_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Terrance

= 60 degrees of bank with 100 kias or more isn't close to a stall AOA. I don'= t have an AOA indication (yet), but I can feel it in the stick long before = the wing fully stalls (long before equals 5+ knots). In my practice session= s, the most important parameter is the airspeed. I take a few moments to es= tablish the glide speed before I do anything else. In this situation "speed= is life".

The 60 degrees of bank is really just a wag. What I mean = is that my bank angle is well under max performance. It is very hard for me= to do this on the edge of a stall -- too many things for my brain to handl= e. In practice, a more modest bank, like about 60 degrees, is a lot easier = to manage and you still get a marvelous turn rate with pretty close to mini= mum altitude lost for a 180 degree turn.

I've spent a fair amount of= time flying at max performance with high AOA. I don't do it a high g load = in my LNC2, but I do a pretty aggressive slow flight exercise (at altitude)= in an effort to make coordinated flight second nature. However, when I've = tried this as a technique to return to land, it's just too many ducks to li= ne up at the same time.

Bill



To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14= :27:03 -0400
From: troneill@charter.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fue= ling nozzles and training

=0A= =0A= = =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Bill, right.  Practice the= =0A= procedure.  How do yoou know how close your wing is to its stall =0A= AOA
=0A=
Terrence
=0A=
L235/320 N211AL
=0A=
 
=0A=
=0A=
----- Original Message -----
=0A=
From: =0A= Bill Kennedy
=0A= = =0A=
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 05:3= 8 =0A= PM
=0A=
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling = nozzles =0A= and training
=0A=

=0A=
I practice these simulated engine failur= e turns =0A= from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to the runway than = in =0A= the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big difference betwee= n a =0A= maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experi= ence =0A= suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max performance, that timing th= e =0A= rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on the edge of a stal= l, so =0A= brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a ver= y =0A= brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS = and =0A= time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max performance tur= ns at =0A= low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain yo= ur =0A= airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things= are =0A= to maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle.

Almost = all =0A= say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to return to the air= port =0A= when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often =0A= die.



=0A=
=0A=
=0A= To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:42 -0400
F= rom: =0A= tom.gourley@verizon.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles an= d =0A= training

=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
"check this =0A= out for training.....
http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-0= 7.html "
=0A=
 
=0A=
I can't dispute the results shown = in the video, =0A= but I gotta wonder.  I understand that a steep bank with low airsp= eed =0A= results in a high turn rate, i.e. completes the turn in the least amoun= t of =0A= time, but it leaves no margin for error.  In a real engine ou= t =0A= situation, high pucker factor, probably distractions, maybe some =0A= turbulence, lots of adrenaline, is a 60 degree bank with the = stick =0A= pulled back so that you're getting some stall buffeting really a good = =0A= idea?  I don't think so; especially not in a Lancair, and pro= bably =0A= not in several other types of aircraft.  A few years ago I watched= the =0A= pilot of a Mooney 231 attempt to make a steeply banked turn to a runway= =0A= after loss of power at low altitude.  (Yes, it turned out to be fu= el =0A= exhaustion.)  He was trying to turn a total of 120 - 135 degrees.&= nbsp; =0A= He had turned about 90 degrees when the right wing and nose dropped =0A= noticeably; a stall-spin entry.  He stopped the rotation =0A= immediately with opposite rudder but was too low to =0A= fully recover.  The impact was fatal.  I think an off ai= rport =0A= landing with the aircraft under control would always be better than an = =0A= uncontrolled descent.
=0A=
 
=0A=
Yes, I realize an AOA would help t= remendously =0A= in this situation, assuming the pilot isn't completely paniced and is = =0A= capable of flying the AOA accurately.  Training and practice sound= s =0A= like a good idea.
=0A=
 
=0A=
Tom Gourley
=0A=
 
=0A=
 
=0A=
= --_9a90347c-1b83-4c1e-9885-e48c35dbef65_--