X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:27:03 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mail7.tpgi.com.au ([203.12.160.103] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTPS id 2922404 for lml@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 May 2008 19:07:02 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.12.160.103; envelope-from=domcrain@tpg.com.au X-TPG-Antivirus: Passed Received: from CRAIN (60-241-193-89.static.tpgi.com.au [60.241.193.89]) by mail7.tpgi.com.au (envelope-from domcrain@tpg.com.au) (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m4EN6GsW016745 for ; Thu, 15 May 2008 09:06:18 +1000 From: "Dominic V Crain" X-Original-To: "'Lancair Mailing List'" Subject: RE: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training X-Original-Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:05:46 +1000 X-Original-Message-ID: <002101c8b617$0c6d6ca0$0201a8c0@CRAIN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C8B66A.DE1BC690" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Aci2E4h0AEroXEQpRuqm2+7advjJ/gAANSvg Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C8B66A.DE1BC690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK Bill - You're on the take-off R/W length 1000 metres (3280'). You're = at say, 200' passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted - engine dead = cuts. Where to? =20 I think your scenario is fine if you have a significant amount of = breathing gas under, but then - can you still make the airfield? =20 Your scenario is seriously debatable, I believe. =20 Cheers mate =20 Dom =20 VH-CZJ =20 -----Original Message----- From: Lancair Mailing List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Bill Kennedy Sent: Thursday, 15 May 2008 8:39 AM To: lml@lancaironline.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training =20 I practice these simulated engine failure turns from time to time. I'd = far rather land on or parallel to the runway than in the whatever off the = ends of the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance = turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the = turn rate is so fast at max performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on the edge of a stall, so brain = overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree bank produces a very brisk turn = rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still hold my 100KIAS and time my = rollout perfectly. To reiterate: 1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck. 2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed. 3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to = maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle. Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all attempt to = return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't practice often die. _____ =20 To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:42 -0400 From: tom.gourley@verizon.net Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training "check this out for training..... http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html " =20 I can't dispute the results shown in the video, but I gotta wonder. I understand that a steep bank with low airspeed results in a high turn = rate, i.e. completes the turn in the least amount of time, but it leaves no = margin for error. In a real engine out situation, high pucker factor, probably distractions, maybe some turbulence, lots of adrenaline, is a 60 degree = bank with the stick pulled back so that you're getting some stall buffeting really a good idea? I don't think so; especially not in a Lancair, and probably not in several other types of aircraft. A few years ago I = watched the pilot of a Mooney 231 attempt to make a steeply banked turn to a = runway after loss of power at low altitude. (Yes, it turned out to be fuel exhaustion.) He was trying to turn a total of 120 - 135 degrees. He = had turned about 90 degrees when the right wing and nose dropped noticeably; = a stall-spin entry. He stopped the rotation immediately with opposite = rudder but was too low to fully recover. The impact was fatal. I think an off airport landing with the aircraft under control would always be better = than an uncontrolled descent. =20 Yes, I realize an AOA would help tremendously in this situation, = assuming the pilot isn't completely paniced and is capable of flying the AOA accurately. Training and practice sounds like a good idea. =20 Tom Gourley =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C8B66A.DE1BC690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

OK Bill – You’re on = the take-off  R/W length 1000 metres (3280’). You’re at say, 200’ = passing 100 KIAS Gear is UP, Flaps retracted – engine dead cuts. Where = to?

 

I think your scenario is fine if = you have a significant amount of breathing gas under, but then – can you = still make the airfield?

 

Your scenario is seriously = debatable, I believe.

 

Cheers mate

 

Dom

 

VH-CZJ

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Lancair Mailing = List [mailto:lml@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Bill Kennedy
Sent: Thursday, 15 May = 2008 8:39 AM
To: = lml@lancaironline.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, = fueling nozzles and training

 

I practice these simulated = engine failure turns from time to time. I'd far rather land on or parallel to = the runway than in the whatever off the ends of the runway. There is a big difference between a maximum performance turn at 100 KIAS and a 60 = degree bank turn. My experience suggests that the turn rate is so fast at max = performance, that timing the rollout becomes a problem. Max performance puts you on = the edge of a stall, so brain overload is a problem too. However, a 60 degree = bank produces a very brisk turn rate without overtaxing my brain. I can still = hold my 100KIAS and time my rollout perfectly.

To reiterate:
1. Max performance turns at low altitude suck.
2. 60 degree bank turns are easy if you maintain your airspeed.
3. Practice, or don't plan to do it for real. The key things are to = maintain your airspeed and keep the ball in the middle.

Almost all say they'd land "straight ahead". Almost all = attempt to return to the airport when it actually happens. The one's who don't = practice often die.



To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:35:42 -0400
From: tom.gourley@verizon.net
Subject: [LML] Re: Crash, fueling nozzles and training

"check = this out for training.....
http://www.aerobats.com/seminar_02-07.html = ;"

 

I can't dispute the results = shown in the video, but I gotta wonder.  I understand that a steep bank with = low airspeed results in a high turn rate, i.e. completes the turn in the = least amount of time, but it leaves no margin for error.  In a real = engine out situation, high pucker factor, probably distractions, maybe some turbulence, lots of adrenaline, is a 60 degree bank with the = stick pulled back so that you're getting some stall buffeting really a good = idea?  I don't think so; especially not in a Lancair, and probably not in = several other types of aircraft.  A few years ago I watched the pilot of a = Mooney 231 attempt to make a steeply banked turn to a runway after loss of = power at low altitude.  (Yes, it turned out to be fuel exhaustion.)  He = was trying to turn a total of 120 - 135 degrees.  He had turned about = 90 degrees when the right wing and nose dropped noticeably; a stall-spin entry.  He stopped the rotation immediately with opposite = rudder but was too low to fully recover.  The impact was fatal.  = I think an off airport landing with the aircraft under control would = always be better than an uncontrolled descent.

 

Yes, I realize an AOA would = help tremendously in this situation, assuming the pilot isn't completely = paniced and is capable of flying the AOA accurately.  Training and practice = sounds like a good idea.

 

Tom = Gourley

 

 

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