X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Sender: To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:52:10 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from mtai04.charter.net ([209.225.8.184] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.11) with ESMTP id 2227060 for lml@lancaironline.net; Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:22:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.225.8.184; envelope-from=troneill@charter.net Received: from aa03.charter.net ([10.20.200.155]) by mtai04.charter.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.00 201-2186-121-20061213) with ESMTP id <20070802142138.IPZY19955.mtai04.charter.net@aa03.charter.net> for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:21:38 -0400 Received: from axs ([75.132.198.100]) by aa03.charter.net with SMTP id <20070802142137.GHTV7864.aa03.charter.net@axs> for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:21:37 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: <003901c7d510$71084970$6401a8c0@axs> From: "terrence o'neill" X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" References: Subject: Re: [LML] SUMMARY OF LANCAIR ACCIDENTS IN NTSB DATABASE X-Original-Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 09:21:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C7D4E6.87FCB280" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Chzlrs: 0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C7D4E6.87FCB280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill, On the LML you asked: What percentage of those 24 planes had AOA = indicators, and what is the percentage in the entire fleet, preferably = by model? Judging from the number of Lancairs at OSH that did not have AOAs, do = you think 10%, if that many of the 24, had AOAs? Your inference seems to = be that if there is not complete data, the argument is useless... but we = all deal capably with generalities every day... I'm just saying that the = 24 fatal stall-spins could have been avoided if the pilots had an AOA = indicator and practiced slow-flight with it, ,, instead of being = 'angle-blind'. =20 I've noted from comments on the LML that one problem here is that many = (not all) Lancair pilots are very wary of stalling their Lancairs. You commented: While AOA is a useful tool, I am not convinced that = having AOA and using it under normal conditions will immunize you from a = spin under abnormal conditions. I have to wonder whether you have evaluated them by flying with an = AOA, particularly for an hour or so in slow flight, the usefulness of an = AOA? I've been flying with then since 1964. As to spins, they can only = result from stalls, almost always after the incipient phase -- the first = two turns wherein the plane unstalls itself twice -- and wherein an AOA = indicator can show you exactly at what angle your wing is working = relative to its stall angle, and exactly how much nose-down you need to = unstall it. After the incipient phase, spin recovery itself depends = on the aerodynamic shape of the plane and the mass distribution. Your last comment: If an AOA systems fails in a non conservative way = it could induce an accident that would not otherwise have happened. If anything critical fails it could induce an accident. To check your = AOA you just nibble at a stall. Takes a few seconds. Learning to fly is learning habits and information, the teachers say, = 21 times. And we're then reluctant to go through 'unlearning' that our = wings stall at an ANGLE ... perhaps because the FAA still insists we = talk about a plane's 'stall speed', even though the wing can be stalled = from 1 mph to Va, maneuvering speed and G. =20 Flying with an AOA is FUN! It completely eliminates the stall-worry = of situations like turning final to a short runway in a loaded plane in = turbulent weather on a hot day. =20 My pitching AOAs is just trying to spread the joy, and save the lives = of some excellent people. IMHO the best AOAs are indicators that readout in degrees, not little = lights or noises. With one like that I have flown for an hour, = steep-turning, zooming and so on, just one or two degrees below the = wing's stall angle, and never stalling. So I say -- try it, Bill. You'll like it. Terrence L235/320 N211AL=20 terrence o'neill wrote: Jeff, Thanks for the Lancair accident update.=20 Note that of these 126 Lancair accidents, 54 included fatalities, = and 24 of the accidents definitely resulted from a stall/spin -- the = last pilot-controllable event before the pilot pulled his wing past its = stall AOA and became a doomed passenger. Note that a wing of a trimmed a/c will not stall unless the pilot = pulls the stick back too far, causing his aircraft to pitch up to a = stall AOA... which he unintentionally does because he cannot SEE the realtive = wind and his wing's stall AOA. A sad, unnecessary waste of friends' and families lives, beautiful = aircraft, and years of creative work, all for the lack of an inexpensive = AOA indicator and a little training to develop habitual use of it. Terrence O'Neill L235/320 N211AL Regards, Bill Hannahan wfhannahan@yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your = story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C7D4E6.87FCB280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi = Bill,
 
On the LML you asked: What percentage of = those 24=20 planes had AOA indicators, and what is the percentage in the entire = fleet,=20 preferably by model?
Judging from the number of Lancairs at OSH that did not have =  AOAs, do you think 10%, if that many of the 24, had AOAs? Your = inference=20 seems to be that if there is not complete data, the argument is = useless... but=20 we all deal capably with generalities every day... I'm just = saying that=20 the 24 fatal stall-spins could have been  avoided if the = pilots had=20 an AOA indicator and practiced slow-flight with it, ,, instead of = being=20 'angle-blind'. 
I've noted from comments on the LML that one problem here is = that=20 many (not all) Lancair pilots are very wary of stalling their = Lancairs.
 
You commented: = While AOA is a useful tool, I am not convinced that = having AOA=20 and using it under normal conditions will immunize you from a spin = under=20 abnormal conditions.
I have to wonder whether you have  evaluated them by flying = with an=20 AOA, particularly for an hour or so in slow flight, the usefulness of = an=20 AOA?  I've been flying with then since 1964.  As to spins, = they can=20 only result from stalls, almost always after the incipient phase -- = the first=20 two turns wherein the plane unstalls itself twice -- and wherein an = AOA=20 indicator can  show you exactly at what angle your wing is = working=20 relative to its stall angle, and exactly how much nose-down you need = to=20 unstall it.   After the incipient phase, spin  recovery = itself=20 depends on the aerodynamic shape of the plane and the mass=20 distribution.
 
Your last comment: If an AOA systems fails = in a non=20 conservative way it could induce an accident that would not otherwise = have=20 happened.
If anything critical fails it could induce an = accident.  To=20 check your AOA you just nibble at a stall.  Takes a few = seconds.
Learning to fly = is learning=20 habits and information, the teachers say, 21 times.  And = we're then=20 reluctant to go through 'unlearning' that our wings stall at an ANGLE=20 ... perhaps because the FAA still insists we talk about a = plane's=20 'stall speed', even though the wing can be stalled from 1 mph to Va,=20 maneuvering speed and G. 
Flying with an = AOA=20 is FUN!  It completely eliminates the stall-worry of = situations=20 like turning final to a short runway in a loaded plane in turbulent = weather on=20 a hot day. 
My pitching AOAs = is just=20 trying to spread the joy, and save the lives of some excellent=20 people.
IMHO the best = AOAs are=20 indicators that readout in degrees, not little lights or noises. With = one like=20 that I have flown for an hour, steep-turning, zooming and so on, just = one or=20 two degrees below the wing's stall angle, and never=20 stalling.
So I say -- try = it,=20 Bill.  You'll like it.
Terrence
L235/320=20 N211AL 
 

terrence o'neill <troneill@charter.net>=20 wrote:
Jeff,
 
Thanks for the = Lancair=20 accident update. 
Note=20 that of these=20 126 Lancair accidents, 54 included fatalities, and 24 of the = accidents=20 definitely resulted from a stall/spin --  the last = pilot-controllable=20 event before the pilot pulled his wing past its stall AOA and = became=20 a doomed passenger.
Note that a = wing of a=20 trimmed a/c will not stall unless the pilot pulls the stick back too = far,=20 causing his aircraft to pitch up to a stall AOA...
which he = unintentionally=20 does because he cannot SEE the realtive wind and his = wing's stall=20 AOA.
A sad,=20 unnecessary waste of friends' and families lives, beautiful = aircraft,=20 and years of creative work, all for the lack of an inexpensive AOA = indicator=20 and a little training to develop habitual use of it.
 
Terrence=20 O'Neill
L235/320=20 N211AL
 



Regards,
Bill Hannahan

Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your = story.
Play = Sims=20 Stories at Yahoo! Games. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C7D4E6.87FCB280--