Return-Path: Received: from pop3.olsusa.com ([63.150.212.2] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.5.2) with ESMTP id 1022389 for rob@logan.com; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:12:25 -0500 Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.39]) by pop3.olsusa.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-71866U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:18:48 -0500 Received: from StarAerospace@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.9.) id k.10f.a6429fa (3311) for ; Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:20:05 -0500 (EST) From: StarAerospace@aol.com Message-ID: <10f.a6429fa.296fec24@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 02:20:04 EST Subject: Thrust, np, downwash, and misconceptions To: lancair.list@olsusa.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: lancair.list@olsusa.com Reply-To: lancair.list@olsusa.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> << Lancair Builders' Mail List >> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<--->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> << If Thrust is defined as the force required to pull the airplane through the air and V is the velocity of the airplane then would not "np" be the "Propulsion Efficiency" you mention? Curious readers want to know. >> Thanks for the help, but no, I'm afraid the V can't be ignored. V at or near zero invalidates the basic thrust equations of T = np * 550 * HP / V and... np = ( T * V ) / (HP * 550) because we would have to divide or multiply by zero. Gee, that means that np would be either infinite or zero (percentage or not ). In fact, the inversely proportional relationship of T and V represents J, the difference between the angle of the helix wake field and the freestream. Thrust is nonlinear with V near zero and np does not apply. Please stop interchanging np with Peff, which really IS a percentage. Raymer and most texts do not get into this simply because it is too complex and not well quantified in current aero theory; although I would point out that NO WHERE in Raymer's or many other texts is np called out as a percentage. Heck, even Bombardier and Dornier still use actuator disc theory in their CFD of prop aircraft; not very accurate. (BTW, I have a first edition of Raymer over a decade old among many other references. Almost none speak of the differences between np and Peff since most work in the "installed vs. uninstalled thrust" area took place after the jet revolution. However, the analysis of installed vs. uninstalled thrust of jets is highly detailed.) There are MANY dimensionless coefficients that typically come out to some fraction of 1; do we represent all of them as percentages??? How about lift coefficients? For normal flight above stall, Cl is almost always less than 1, should we say that our Lancairs cruise at 15% lift efficiency and approach at 90%??? Absurd examples abound. I go with convention of professionals. In this case, transonic propeller engineers and aerodynamicists call out np as np, not a percentage. Behind the prop there is a helix of blade wakes that have been accelerated vs. the freestream. Between these wakes are a helix of disturbed air that is at varying velocity depending on how close the blade wakes are to each other. At low speeds the helix is very close to parallel with the freestream, so we get lots of thrust for not a lot of HP. This is because the blades are at nearly flat pitch and the lift they produce mostly goes in the direction of flight. Now, we need to stop thinking in Cl and start thinking in Cn. As we go faster the helix stretches out and we create more blade lift off the thrust axis. Conservation of energy tells us that since we are making lift someplace useless, we must give up some of the "useful" lift in the thrust axis. The Cn (or force coefficient normal to the blades) is still very high, but now the pitch of the blade is not perpendicular to the direction of flight. So the Cl (thrust axis) has diminished (you guessed it!) in direct proportion to the velocity. "np" cannot be represented as a percentage in the equation you used because the physical relationships you both are quoting Peff, not np. We simply can't get away from that dratted velocity component because we are defining an acceleration, not a pressure. In an ideal case, Peff = np. The real world is different. In your "aircraft tied to a tree" scenario, useful work IS being done: A great deal of air is being accelerated from zero to some velocity. Restricting the physical definition of "work" done by tying the aircraft down is poor physics. Would you also say that a hovering aircraft is doing no "useful" work? It too is motionless, so by your definition it should be producing no more "useful work" to accomplish this than the coffee cup. "But wait!", I hear, "Wings produce lift and that's just a static force in level flight, right? I was taught that by (insert pilot course, undergraduate or HS course, old salty CFI, etc.)" Wrong. This fundamental misconception of how lift is created and why we stay in the air exists not only in every pilot course, but also in all lower division aerodynamics classes (this misconception is corrected in upper division classes ... sometimes ). Gravity is an acceleration, not a static force. When we are in level flight, we are continually accelerating "up" at 1 G. That's 32 fps/sec; NOT 32 fps (Change your equation to represent lb.f of force instead of lb. of weight and this might be clearer; better yet, use SI units and it becomes obvious). There just happens to be 1 G (down) that's offsetting this and making us think that everything is static. To maintain 1 G level flight, we are accelerating the air flowing over the aircraft DOWN at some combination of mass and velocity capable of supporting 1 G flight of our current aircraft weight. The easiest way of thinking about this is to look at a helicopter and a Harrier, both at ~20,000 lb. weight. The helicopter will accelerate a vast quantity of air down at a small velocity change to maintain a hover or 1 G forward flight. The downwash is the same whether the helicopter is in hover or at 100 KTAS. The volume of air that can be worked with is governed by the rotor diameter, and that's a LOT of air; so we don't have to move it very much. Now look at the Harrier. The "rotor diameter" is the size of the output nozzles. Since the Harrier weighs about the same as some mid to large helicopters, we need to accelerate the air from these nozzles quite a bit faster to keep the same weight in a hover. Now we transition that Harrier into 1 G 300 KTAS forward flight and let the wing do all the work. Guess what? The wing is now accelerating the same massflow of air down as the rotor system on the (equivalent weight) helicopter. Rotary wing, fixed wing, or powered lift, we are pushing air DOWN; fast. It's dynamic, static force concepts fall hard about now... To all on the list without a hard physics background, I apologize for this being so long. But the fact is that thrust is inversely proportional to velocity and none of this babble about tip speeds managed to point that out. For the record, very few props available for general aviation use can maintain an np of greater than .8 at tip speeds above M.85. However, single stage props in production use on the C-130J achieve np of over .85 at tip speeds well into the low M .9's and the counterrotating props on the An-70 work all the way up to M.94 tip speeds and maintain np of over .85 at an aircraft speed of M.72 (almost 500 mph!). The GE led UDF program of counterrotating propfans on an MD-80 led to np of over .80 at a cruise speed of M.81. None of this really helps C-182's at 120 KIAS, but it does make a difference to us in Lancairs (and other, planned aircraft) at M.5+. The difference between what the prop does in the charts and the thrust you get on your aircraft is, in fact, a percentage. This is the "propulsion efficiency" represented by the amount of installed thrust you get for the theoretical uninstalled thrust. Since it is a fraction of a ratio whose maximum is theoretically 1 or 100%, it is appropriate and accepted industry practice to call it out as a percentage. There is only one propulsion concept so far that has exceeded 100% Peff under this definition, and it did it by reducing drag not perpetual motion. ((BTW, aren't you the guy who asserted, not long ago, that "...the PSRU's on all turboprop engines relied on helical gearing..." ?? Seem to remember that being rather convincingly refuted.)) , I should have said "the better ones". Please refer to page 32 of AWS&T 1/7/02 issue or any issue that has a picture of the proposed engine for the A400M. Primary reduction is helical, accessory cases are straight cut. In the case of the M88 derivative for the A400M, they are using a helical planetary. In the case of the proposals made by GE for a geared fan engine, all the published data shows helicals. So were the UDF's, all the post-PT6 Pratts displayed in cut away form at Oshkosh, etc. Disinformation? Perhaps it's a conspiracy Focusing on what was acceptable a few decades ago, isn't really relevant. Straight gears have their place, and that place is low cost when weight is not critical. Otherwise the highest load, lowest weight, highest dollar applications would use them. Eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LML website: http://members.olsusa.com/mkaye/maillist.html LML Builders' Bookstore: http://www.buildersbooks.com/lancair Please remember that purchases from the Builders' Bookstore assist with the management of the LML. Please send your photos and drawings to marvkaye@olsusa.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>