X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com
X-SpamCatcher-Score:  30 [X]
Return-Path: <marv@lancaironline.net>
Sender: <marv@lancaironline.net>
To: lml@lancaironline.net
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:03:02 -0500
Message-ID: <redirect-1800725@logan.com>
X-Original-Return-Path: <brent@regandesigns.com>
Received: from wind.imbris.com ([216.18.130.7] verified)
  by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.5)
  with ESMTPS id 1800596 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:39:16 -0500
Received-SPF: none
 receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.18.130.7; envelope-from=brent@regandesigns.com
Received: from [192.168.1.138] (cbl-238-80.conceptcable.com [207.170.238.80] (may be forged))
	(authenticated bits=0)
	by wind.imbris.com (8.12.11/8.12.11.S) with ESMTP id l0V2cRGh048680;
	Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:38:28 -0800 (PST)
	(envelope-from brent@regandesigns.com)
X-Original-Message-ID: <45C00122.1030105@regandesigns.com>
X-Original-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:38:26 -0800
From: Brent Regan <brent@regandesigns.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-To: Lowell Fitt <lcfitt@sbcglobal.net>,
        Lancair Mailing List <lml@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [LML] Re: Question: hydraulic fluid versus ATF
References: <list-1799823@logan.com> <022c01c744ce$17101470$4201a8c0@lowell>
In-Reply-To: <022c01c744ce$17101470$4201a8c0@lowell>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="------------070502020105070107080400"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------070502020105070107080400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lowell Fitt wrote:

> Brent Says,
> " The first  concern is compatibility with the aquarium tubing."
>
> In all the great and really informative posts from your keyboard, this 
> is the first pejorative comment I recall.  For me at least it 
> diminishes the value of the rest of the post.  Just how much of your 
> post is opinion.  This list and others I have been on are rife with 
> opinion and is of little use when searching for facts.
>
> Are you aware of your so called "aquariun tubing" being a problem in 
> fact.
>
> Lowell

Yes I do.  I have been an outspoken critic of Nylaflow  tubing being 
used as brake lines for many years (check the archives).  There have 
been many (>20) instances of line failures that have resulted in loss of 
directional control. Many more than that have been avoided buy builders 
who have taken my advice and used the D H Instrument hose, Parker PDH 
hose or, more recently, the solution Tim Ong is offering through Lancair.

The whole concept of using Nylaflow began with Rutan and the "it is too 
heavy for an airplane if you throw it up in the air and it comes back 
down" rule back in the '70s.  Nylaflow proved marginally suitable on 
lightweight single and two seat  fixed gear aircraft with 60 mph landing 
speeds. Over the years its application expanded to two ton, four 
passenger retractable gear aircraft that can land in excess of 120 Kts 
(no flap landing). Remember that the energy needed to stop something 
goes up with the square of the speed.  The aircraft  have clearly 
outgrown the component.  Would you argue for Nylaflow brake line in a 
certified aircraft? How about a Jet? How about a Prop Jet????? We can 
all agree that Nylaflow is not a good choice for the brake line on a 747 
so the only question is when does it become a bad choice. For me, it is 
a bad choice if I plan to fly in that aircraft.

Just today another builder wrote to me saying " After putting it off for 
far too long, I replaced all thirteen feet of the four NylaFlo (sp) 
lines in my brake system during the annual I completed last month with 
stainless braid covered teflon lines. I have the old NylaFlo tubing that 
was in the plane for four years.  Although it never leaked or failed me 
in any way, I was surprised to see how brittle it had become. <snip>
   One other stark comparison to my new lines is the thinness of the 
wall of the NylaFlo compated to the teflon.  That was a real eye opener 
and having the teflon gives me a much better sense of security.
<>   I appreciate your periodic carping on this subject.  It reminds me 
of Bill Cosby's old routine, where a voice comes booming from 
above, "Noah, this is the Lord".  I've already started spreading the 
gospel from my installation and at least two other ES builders I know 
are switching soon."

Pejorative? Whatever..

Regards
Brent Regan

For the archivally challenged, a couple of my previous posts on the topic.

 From my post on 9/21/03

<<

"Watch out for that tree!" from George of the Jungle.

Jeff writes:
<< Oh yes, I went off the runway at the Redmond fly in  with a brake 
failure a few weeks back <snip>  Brake line failed (nylaflow) inside 
gear leg. Tim Ong says there have been other failures and they are 
working on a fix. Would have been disastrous on a short runway with 
heavy braking on touchdown or a narrow runway with obstacles.
 >>

No SH*T!

I have been saying it for 8 years and it is worth saying again. Aquarium 
tubing has no business being used to stop a $350,000 airplane traveling 
at 100 MPH with four souls on board. If you lifted the hood of your SUV 
and saw Nylaflow brake lines would you STILL hop in and take Billy and 
the twins to the soccer match? Heck, cars even have triple redundant 
braking systems. In our planes, the loss of EITHER brake will result in 
"El Pucker Grande".

A "fix" already exists and has existed since '95. D H Instruments hose 
assembly #  F3737-60  http://www.dhinstruments.com/prod1/ft.htm

"Oh but Brent, the DH lines are SO expensive!"

Builders have actually said this to me.

Gee, let me think, for the $200+ a set you would save you could buy 1/5 
of a panel mounted CD player, 85 gallons of Avgas, a pair of crappy 
headphones, 4 spark plugs or one set of tires. I guarantee you this, 
nothing else you can buy for $200 will do you a damn bit of good as you 
reenact the "Evil Kinievel Ceasars Palace Fountain Jump Landing" after a 
10 year old chunk of $0.11/foot plastic decides it doesn't want to keep 
doing something it was never designed to do in the first place.

The flight isn't over until the plane has stopped and all the passengers 
are safely out. "Stopped" is the operative word here, the one the FAA 
and your insurance company will be most interested in.

Winter is coming and it is a good time to put the plane on jacks and 
install something that will save your life at every landing.

Tim, Vern, Joe......you listening?

Regards
Brent Regan

BTW, I have absolutely no affiliation with D H Instruments.
 >>>>

 From my post on 5/11/2005:

<<<<<
Brake pedal "feel" or firmness is the result of the compliance , or 
elasticity, of the brake system. A firm pedal feel is desirable because 
it transmits the most information about the conditions existing during 
braking. The bending of the brake pedal, stretching of the rudder 
cables, compression of the brake pads, flexing of the calipers, 
expansion of the brake lines and compression of the brake fluid all 
contribute to the overall "feel" of the system.  Of these factors the 
last two are the only ones we can reasonably change.

Compression of the brake fluid is primarily a result of tiny air bubbles 
in the brake fluid. These bubbles are so small they do not float  and 
remain dissolved in the fluid. The volume of the fluid is also a factor 
as the larger the compressed volume the lower the spring rate. Prior to 
replacing the brake fluid on my airplane I vacuum degas it by putting it 
in a tank and evacuating the air.  It is amazing how much foam evolves 
from the fluid. I then carefully use this de-aerated fluid in the brake 
system.

Expansion of the brake lines is the result of strain of the wall of the 
tube as a result of pressure induced stress. Stress can be calculated by 
dividing the pressure (~500 PSI) times the bore radius by the wall 
thickness. The stress divided my the modulus of the material is the 
strain. Small bore, thick walled and high modulus tubes will result in a 
stiffer system. Adding Vaigra to the brake fluid will have no effect.

Bottom line (NPI) is that metal is better than reinforced hose which is 
better than plastic. A well designed system will use 3/16"  stainless in 
hot and static areas, aluminum in cool static areas, stainless braided 
or Kevlar reinforced hose in flex areas (insulated in hot flex areas).  
Brakes lines transmit pressure with only a very small transient flow so 
use small diameter tubing and hose to save weight and reduce the fluid 
volume.

I think it is time to start a new group consisting of people who believe 
it is OK to trust their safety to a pair of thin walled plastic tubes. 
These folks can then attend conventions with people with similar 
beliefs. People who believe that earth is flat, that the Apollo missions 
never went to the moon, that the earth is 6,000 years old or that Al 
Gore invented the internet. The common thread is that all these people 
firmly hold their beliefs in the face of  overwhelming factual, 
empirical and  analytical evidence.

I have said it before and say it again, " Nylaflow " should not be used 
as brake hydraulic tubing. It lacks in mechanical strength, thermal 
performance and chemical resistance. The time spent replacing it with 
proper hose and hard line will likely be less then the time spent on the 
repair when it fails.

To all you Nylaflow Flat Earth Hollywood Moon Landing Society members,  
repent now or regret later!

Regards
Brent Regan
 >>>>>



--------------070502020105070107080400
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Lowell Fitt wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="mid022c01c744ce$17101470$4201a8c0@lowell" type="cite">Brent
Says,
  <br>
" The first&nbsp; concern is compatibility with the aquarium tubing."
  <br>
  <br>
In all the great and really informative posts from your keyboard, this
is the first pejorative comment I recall.&nbsp; For me at least it
diminishes the value of the rest of the post.&nbsp; Just how much of your
post is opinion.&nbsp; This list and others I have been on are rife with
opinion and is of little use when searching for facts.
  <br>
  <br>
Are you aware of your so called "aquariun tubing" being a problem in
fact.
  <br>
  <br>
Lowell <br>
</blockquote>
Yes I do.&nbsp; I have been an outspoken critic of Nylaflow&nbsp; tubing being
used as brake lines for many years (check the archives).&nbsp; There have
been many (&gt;20) instances of line failures that have resulted in
loss of directional control. Many more than that have been avoided buy
builders who have taken my advice and used the D H Instrument hose,
Parker PDH hose or, more recently, the solution Tim Ong is offering
through Lancair. <br>
<br>
The whole concept of using Nylaflow began with Rutan and the "it is too
heavy for an airplane if you throw it up in the air and it comes back
down" rule back in the '70s.&nbsp; Nylaflow proved marginally suitable on
lightweight single and two seat&nbsp; fixed gear aircraft with 60 mph
landing speeds. Over the years its application expanded to two ton,
four passenger retractable gear aircraft that can land in excess of 120
Kts (no flap landing). Remember that the energy needed to stop
something goes up with the square of the speed.&nbsp; The aircraft&nbsp; have
clearly outgrown the component.&nbsp; Would you argue for Nylaflow brake
line in a certified aircraft? How about a Jet? How about a Prop
Jet????? We can all agree that Nylaflow is not a good choice for the
brake line on a 747 so the only question is when does it become a bad
choice. For me, it is a bad choice if I plan to fly in that aircraft. <br>
<br>
Just today another builder wrote to me saying " <big><font face="Arial"
 size="2"><big>After putting it off for far too long, I replaced all
thirteen feet of the four&nbsp;NylaFlo (sp) lines in my brake system during
the annual I completed last month with stainless braid covered teflon
lines.</big></font><font face="Arial" size="2"><big> I have the old
NylaFlo tubing that was&nbsp;in the plane for four years.&nbsp; Although it never
leaked or failed me in any way, I was surprised to see how brittle it
had become. &lt;snip&gt; </big></font></big>
<div><big><font face="Arial" size="2"><big>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;One other stark
comparison to my new lines is the thinness of the wall of the NylaFlo
compated to the teflon.&nbsp; That was a real eye opener and having the
teflon gives me a much better sense of security.</big></font></big></div>
<><font face="Arial" size="2"><big>&nbsp;&nbsp; I appreciate your periodic
carping on this subject.&nbsp; It reminds me of Bill Cosby's old routine,
where a voice comes booming from above,&nbsp;"Noah, this is the Lord".&nbsp; I've
already started spreading the gospel from my installation and at least
two other ES builders I know are switching soon</big>.</font></>"<br>
<br>
Pejorative? Whatever..<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Brent Regan<br>
<br>
For the archivally challenged, a couple of my previous posts on the
topic.<br>
<br>
From my post on 9/21/03<br>
<br>
&lt;&lt;<br>
<br>
"Watch out for that tree!" from George of the Jungle.<br>
<br>
Jeff writes:<br>
&lt;&lt;
Oh yes, I went off the runway at the Redmond fly in&nbsp; with a brake
failure
a few weeks back &lt;snip&gt;&nbsp; Brake line failed (nylaflow) inside gear
leg.
Tim Ong says there have been other failures and they are working on a
fix.
Would have been disastrous on a short runway with heavy braking on
touchdown
or a narrow runway with obstacles.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
No SH*T!<br>
<br>
I have been saying it for 8 years and it is worth saying again.
Aquarium
tubing has no business being used to stop a $350,000 airplane traveling
at
100 MPH with four souls on board. If you lifted the hood of your SUV
and
saw Nylaflow brake lines would you STILL hop in and take Billy and the
twins
to the soccer match? Heck, cars even have triple redundant braking
systems.
In our planes, the loss of EITHER brake will result in "El Pucker
Grande".<br>
<br>
A "fix" already exists and has existed since '95. D H Instruments hose
assembly
# &nbsp;F3737-60 &nbsp;<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="http://www.dhinstruments.com/prod1/ft.htm">http://www.dhinstruments.com/prod1/ft.htm</a><br>
<br>
"Oh but Brent, the DH lines are SO expensive!" <br>
<br>
Builders have actually said this to me. <br>
<br>
Gee, let me think, for the $200+ a set you would save you could buy 1/5
of
a panel mounted CD player, 85 gallons of Avgas, a pair of crappy
headphones,
4 spark plugs or one set of tires. I guarantee you this, nothing else
you
can buy for $200 will do you a damn bit of good as you reenact the
"Evil
Kinievel Ceasars Palace Fountain Jump Landing" after a 10 year old
chunk
of $0.11/foot plastic decides it doesn't want to keep doing something
it
was never designed to do in the first place.<br>
<br>
The flight isn't over until the plane has stopped and all the
passengers
are safely out. "Stopped" is the operative word here, the one the FAA
and
your insurance company will be most interested in.<br>
<br>
Winter is coming and it is a good time to put the plane on jacks and
install
something that will save your life at every landing.<br>
<br>
Tim, Vern, Joe......you listening?<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Brent Regan<br>
<br>
BTW, I have absolutely no affiliation with D H Instruments.<br>
<font face="arial,helvetica"><font face="arial,helvetica"><font
 face="arial,helvetica">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
From my post on 5/11/2005:<br>
<br>
&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<br>
</font></font></font><font face="Arial">Brake pedal "feel" or firmness
is the result of the
compliance , or elasticity, of the brake system. </font><font
 face="Arial">A firm pedal feel is desirable because it transmits the
most information about the conditions existing during braking. </font><font
 face="Arial">The bending of the brake pedal, stretching of the rudder
cables, compression of the brake pads, flexing of the calipers,
expansion of the brake lines and compression of the brake fluid all
contribute to the overall "feel" of the system.&nbsp; Of these factors the
last two are the only ones we can reasonably change. <br>
<br>
Compression of the brake fluid is primarily a result of tiny air
bubbles in the brake fluid. These bubbles are so small they do not
float&nbsp; and remain dissolved in the fluid. The volume of the fluid is
also a factor as the larger the compressed volume the lower the spring
rate. Prior to replacing the brake fluid on my airplane I vacuum degas
it by putting it in a tank and evacuating the air.&nbsp; It is amazing how
much foam evolves from the fluid. I then carefully use this de-aerated
fluid in the brake system.<br>
<br>
Expansion of the brake lines is the result of strain of the wall of the
tube as a result of pressure induced stress. Stress can be calculated
by dividing the pressure (~500 PSI) times the bore radius by the wall
thickness. The stress divided my the modulus of the material is the
strain. Small bore, thick walled and high modulus tubes will result in
a stiffer system. Adding Vaigra to the brake fluid will have no effect.
<br>
<br>
Bottom line (NPI) is that metal is better than reinforced hose which is
better than plastic. A well designed system will use 3/16"&nbsp; stainless
in hot and static areas, aluminum in cool static areas, stainless
braided or Kevlar reinforced hose in flex areas (insulated in hot flex
areas).&nbsp; Brakes lines transmit pressure with only a very small
transient flow so use small diameter tubing and hose to save weight and
reduce the fluid volume.</font><font face="Arial"><br>
<br>
I think it is time to start a new group consisting
of people who believe it is OK to trust their safety to a pair of thin
walled plastic tubes. These folks can then attend conventions with
people with similar beliefs. People who believe that earth is flat,
that the Apollo missions never went to the moon, that the earth is
6,000 years old or that Al Gore invented the internet. The common
thread is that all these people firmly hold their beliefs in the face
of&nbsp; overwhelming factual, empirical and&nbsp; analytical evidence. <br>
<br>
I have said it before and say it again, " Nylaflow " should not be used
as brake hydraulic tubing. It lacks in mechanical strength, thermal
performance and chemical resistance. The time spent replacing it with
proper hose and hard line will likely be less then the time spent on
the repair when it fails.<br>
</font><font face="Arial"><br>
To all you Nylaflow Flat Earth Hollywood Moon Landing Society members,&nbsp;
repent now or regret later!<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Brent Regan<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
</font><br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------070502020105070107080400--