Return-Path: Sender: "Marvin Kaye" To: lml@lancaironline.net Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 00:42:18 -0400 Message-ID: X-Original-Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao10.cox.net ([68.230.241.29] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.2) with ESMTP id 424977 for lml@lancaironline.net; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:36:56 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.29; envelope-from=radialpower@cox.net Received: from [68.228.74.87] by fed1rmmtao10.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.04 201-2131-111-106-20040729) with ESMTP id <20040922033626.DSZZ15954.fed1rmmtao10.cox.net@[68.228.74.87]> for ; Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:36:26 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--594615045 X-Original-Message-Id: <94A8864C-0C48-11D9-B82C-0003936AFD3E@cox.net> From: Barry Hancock Subject: Re: [LML] Formation Flying X-Original-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:36:25 -0700 X-Original-To: "Lancair Mailing List" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.613) --Apple-Mail-8--594615045 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed I am not going to keep on defending formation flying, but I do need to dispel incorrect notions. > I live in a flying community which has an formation flying > organization called Gaggle Flight. I have flown formation with other > high-performance airplanes to our Saturday morning breakfasts. One > flight (the last one for me) the leader flew us into a flock of > vultures, which required that I breakout of the formation. A retired > American pilot in the backseat to this day is effusive in his praise > of my action which he is certain was essential for saving his life. > Had I been locked 100% on a wing tip and not scanning ahead---- To be sure, there is a high level of trust in Lead. If he is *qualified* and *competent* then fly with him, if he's not...don't. Part of formation flying is "lookout doctrine". True, not as effective when in parade as when in route formation, but more eyes mean a higher chance of identifying in flight hazards. What I don't want people to start thinking here is that flying wing means you split your time between the aircraft that you are flying on and looking ahead. What if Lead turns into you? > > I'm also reminded of a recent episode in California with a group of > Bonanza's that followed a leader into a canyon. Yeah, and the Thunderbirds did the same thing. A Russian formation team plowed multiple aircraft into the top of a ridge, and on and on. Every activity has risks, but formation flying, when done to FAST standards in either a training or airshow environment has not had (knock on wood!) a single accident...can't say that about many other disciplines in flying. > > The joy of camaraderie at the bar that night- being able to brag that > I tucked it in really tight, does not seem to be a reasonable payoff > for the RISK of a midair collision. That is NOT what sport formation flying is about. Leave the "tucking it in really tight" for the Blue Angels or the Red Baron Pizza Stearmans. Sport formation is a *discipline* that allows for at least 2 axis of separation, if not 3 (wingtip, nose to tail, stack down). If you are "tucked in tight" your are adding levels of risk not taught or encouraged in a FAST or FFI environment. > > For those who haven't flown formation, the requirement of > concentration is essential. For extended periods of time. A > gust/propwash/wing tip vorticies must be met with immediate control > inputs. > > True, it is a test of skills. But so are many other aspects of flying. > A good crosswind landing or a tightly flown on ILS (less than an a > needle width from intercept inbound) > > But, as for me, I'm not willing to place my life in the hands of > someone else while I concentrate on how close I can put my airplane to > his. There's a substantial difference between seeing how close you can put your plane to someone else's, and being in position. If you want to be close, go start a formation aerobatics team. If you want to enjoy the wonderful world of formation flying safely and minimize the risk, it can be done with proper training. Let me just end by saying this. I just returned from a FAST clinic in Lamar, CO. We had 12 airplanes, with 2 working on getting their Wing card. The third day of flying included a mass formation of 10 airplanes. One of the guys flying a Yak-50 is a current USAF F-117 instructor at Holloman AFB. He flies the T-38 in the morning and the F-117 in the afternoon (rough job!). In fact, he was #10 in the formation and could see everything. In the debrief he said, "I tell you what, for guys who don't do this everyday professionally like I do, you guys do a heck of a job. I'm impressed." My point here is that we're not all Sierra Hotel pilots, but we fly by *standards* that both keep us safe and allow us to look good (it's about symmetry, not proximity). I have been to over a dozen FAST clinics which encompasses well over 500 sorties with pilots with all kinds of backgrounds and experience levels, and there has not been even a single incident. That speaks for itself. On that note, it's your decision what you do with your airplane. Just don't not try something because somebody else that you may or may not know said something negative about something that is accepted, regulated, standardized, and demonstrated to be safe. Cheers, Barry --Apple-Mail-8--594615045 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII I am not going to keep on defending formation flying, but I do need to dispel incorrect notions. ArialI live in a flying community which has an formation flying organization called Gaggle Flight. I have flown formation with other high-performance airplanes to our Saturday morning breakfasts. One flight (the last one for me) the leader flew us into a flock of vultures, which required that I breakout of the formation. A retired American pilot in the backseat to this day is effusive in his praise of my action which he is certain was essential for saving his life. Had I been locked 100% on a wing tip and not scanning ahead---- To be sure, there is a high level of trust in Lead. If he is *qualified* and *competent* then fly with him, if he's not...don't. Part of formation flying is "lookout doctrine". True, not as effective when in parade as when in route formation, but more eyes mean a higher chance of identifying in flight hazards. What I don't want people to start thinking here is that flying wing means you split your time between the aircraft that you are flying on and looking ahead. What if Lead turns into you? ArialI'm also reminded of a recent episode in California with a group of Bonanza's that followed a leader into a canyon. Yeah, and the Thunderbirds did the same thing. A Russian formation team plowed multiple aircraft into the top of a ridge, and on and on. Every activity has risks, but formation flying, when done to FAST standards in either a training or airshow environment has not had (knock on wood!) a single accident...can't say that about many other disciplines in flying. ArialThe joy of camaraderie at the bar that night- being able to brag that I tucked it in really tight, does not seem to be a reasonable payoff for the RISK of a midair collision. That is NOT what sport formation flying is about. Leave the "tucking it in really tight" for the Blue Angels or the Red Baron Pizza Stearmans. Sport formation is a *discipline* that allows for at least 2 axis of separation, if not 3 (wingtip, nose to tail, stack down). If you are "tucked in tight" your are adding levels of risk not taught or encouraged in a FAST or FFI environment. ArialFor those who haven't flown formation, the requirement of concentration is essential. For extended periods of time. A gust/propwash/wing tip vorticies must be met with immediate control inputs. ArialTrue, it is a test of skills. But so are many other aspects of flying. A good crosswind landing or a tightly flown on ILS (less than an a needle width from intercept inbound) ArialBut, as for me, I'm not willing to place my life in the hands of someone else while I concentrate on how close I can put my airplane to his. There's a substantial difference between seeing how close you can put your plane to someone else's, and being in position. If you want to be close, go start a formation aerobatics team. If you want to enjoy the wonderful world of formation flying safely and minimize the risk, it can be done with proper training. Let me just end by saying this. I just returned from a FAST clinic in Lamar, CO. We had 12 airplanes, with 2 working on getting their Wing card. The third day of flying included a mass formation of 10 airplanes. One of the guys flying a Yak-50 is a current USAF F-117 instructor at Holloman AFB. He flies the T-38 in the morning and the F-117 in the afternoon (rough job!). In fact, he was #10 in the formation and could see everything. In the debrief he said, "I tell you what, for guys who don't do this everyday professionally like I do, you guys do a heck of a job. I'm impressed." My point here is that we're not all Sierra Hotel pilots, but we fly by *standards* that both keep us safe and allow us to look good (it's about symmetry, not proximity). I have been to over a dozen FAST clinics which encompasses well over 500 sorties with pilots with all kinds of backgrounds and experience levels, and there has not been even a single incident. That speaks for itself. On that note, it's your decision what you do with your airplane. Just don't not try something because somebody else that you may or may not know said something negative about something that is accepted, regulated, standardized, and demonstrated to be safe. Cheers, Barry --Apple-Mail-8--594615045--