Return-Path: Received: from fed1mtao03.cox.net ([68.6.19.242] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2b1) with ESMTP id 3131269 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:46:33 -0500 Received: from Leonards ([68.111.228.182]) by fed1mtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.08 201-253-122-130-108-20031117) with ESMTP id <20040328164633.XPJO2428.fed1mtao03.cox.net@Leonards> for ; Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:46:33 -0500 From: "David Leonard" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Transfer Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:46:38 -0800 Message-ID: <001101c414e4$3d04cbc0$b6e46f44@Leonards> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C414A1.2EE18BC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C414A1.2EE18BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am going to type in this color in honor of all the coolant I have spilled, tasted and cleaned up over the last weeks. I even sprayed a bunch all over my wife by accident - she vowed never to work on the plane again. _______________ Problem 2: I was very disappointed to discover that turning off the alternator makes the engine barely run, especially with any other electrical load, even with 2 batteries connected. They are fresh healthy batteries. The voltage drops from 14.2 to 11.5. If running at less than 2300 RPM when the alternator is turned off the engine begins to surge or stops running all together (however, running on just one set of coils improves the problem.) If running at higher RPM the engine will just sag a little. Hmmm, this sure doesn't sound right. Turning off the alternator on mine has zero effect on the engine operation, and that's just with one battery. In fact, losing my alt fuse in flight was a non-issue also, though it would have been a bit more serious if I hadn't noticed the low voltage (about 11.5 IIRC) on the meter. Think about your primary power wiring a minute. Does the battery have a big beefy wire running to the bus? When you turn off your alt, is there any chance that your battery is being forced to feed the bus through a small gauge wire? That would cause a voltage drop. When you turn off the alt, is it just the alt, or a master switch of some sort? Will this change the way the pumps, and ignition get there power, maybe from an essential bus? As has been mentioned, an essential bus will be lower in voltage, due to the drop across a diode. These are just some things to think about. This calls in serious issues about my electrical reliability. I may decide to install a switch to disable one set of coils, or trading the momentary switch that came with the EC2 to a regular 3 position switch. Those LS1 Coils sure do seem to need a lot of Juice. I installed full size switches for my ignition disable function rather than the momentary switch that was provided. I'd like to say that I did it for some grand reason, but in reality, I didn't notice that Tracy sent the switches until after I had installed the switches I had :-) Still, you just shouldn't have to do this for the reason you're thinking. There has to be some answer for #2. Yup, got big wires from the battery directly to a Buss set aside just for the Coils and injectors. No diodes or other interference. The voltage drop is normal considering I am turning off the alternator. Are you using the LS1 coils or the stock coils. That could be a difference. I wish I had lost my switch before installing :-) Problem 3: (THE BIG PROBLEM) My coolant doesn't seem to be flowing well, despite the fact that I have no thermostat and have welded the bypass passage in the pump housing. I ran for almost an hour at 3000 RPM with no apparent problem. Going up to 4000 RPM after that the coolant quickly overheated and boiled over. Surprisingly, the radiator was just luke-warm. B) the Water pump sold to me by Adkins is really for a 3rd gen and is running backward. - possible because the outlet side of the rad seems to get warmer than the inlet side, but only slightly maybe and it is closer to the turbo. Does your water pump housing look very similar to the one in the attached pics? If so, it's a 2nd gen. I would expect that's what you would have received from Atkins. How do your belts run? A second gen wp should run the same direction as the eccentric shaft. A 3rd gen runs opposite. Yes, it looks almost exactly like the one you showed (the spare 2nd gen I have sitting around) except for the modifications to chop it down lower, change to AN fittings and block the thermostat. Pump is turning same direction as e-shaft. I thought maybe a 3rd gen might also appear very similar but unknowingly installing one would make the water run backward if you didn't reverse the rotation. Should be easy enough to check. E) Maybe the thermostat bypass passage is not properly welded closed. - can't see it because of the welded plate, will have to look with a dental mirror. F) ???? any input or other ideas? I was suspecting this as well. Are you positive that the water outlet from the housing didn't get welded shut? Where is your water temp sensor? What does it show? The main coolant passage is open for sure, the temp sensor is in the 1/8 NPT hole on that pump housing you showed (the other holes are chopped off). The sensor is visible when looking in the outlet. Water temp slowly rises like it should and after about 30 min (at 3000 RPM) seemed to level off at about 150. Upon going to higher RPM it started to fluctuate (very quickly) between 160 and 260. Oil temp had leveled off at about 190. After all this thinking, this is becoming the most likely cause - easy to check, but very hard to fix. Thanks for you help David Leonard The Rotary Roster: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C414A1.2EE18BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

I am going to type in this color = in honor of all the coolant I have spilled, tasted and cleaned up over the  = last weeks.  I even sprayed a bunch all over my wife by accident – = she vowed never to work on the plane again.

 _______________

Problem 2:  I was very disappointed to discover that = turning off the alternator makes the engine barely run, especially with any other electrical load, even with 2 batteries connected.   They are = fresh healthy batteries.  The voltage drops from 14.2 to 11.5.  If = running at less than 2300 RPM when the alternator is turned off the engine = begins to surge or stops running all together (however, running on just one set of = coils improves the problem.)  If running at higher RPM the engine will = just sag a little.

 

Hmmm, this sure doesn't sound = right.  Turning off the alternator on mine has zero effect on the engine = operation, and that's just with one battery.  In fact, losing my alt fuse in = flight was a non-issue also, though it would have been a bit more serious if I hadn't noticed the low voltage (about 11.5 IIRC) on the meter.  =

 

Think about your primary power = wiring a minute.  Does the battery have a big beefy wire running to the bus?  When you turn off your alt, is there any chance = that your battery is being forced to feed the bus through a small gauge wire?  That would cause a voltage drop.  When you turn = off the alt, is it just the alt, or a master switch of some = sort?  Will this change the way the pumps, and ignition get there power, maybe from = an essential bus?  As has been mentioned, an essential bus will be = lower in voltage, due to the drop across a diode.  These are just some = things to think about.  

 


This calls in serious issues about my electrical reliability.  I = may decide to install a switch to disable one set of coils, or trading the momentary switch that came with the EC2 to a regular 3 position = switch.  Those LS1 Coils sure do seem to need a lot of Juice.

 

I installed full size switches = for my ignition disable function rather than the momentary switch that was = provided.  I'd like to say that I did it for some grand reason, but in reality, I = didn't notice that Tracy sent the switches until after I = had installed the switches I had :-)  Still, you just shouldn't have to = do this for the reason you're thinking.  There has to be some answer = for #2.

Yup, got big wires from the = battery directly to a Buss set aside just for the Coils and injectors.  No = diodes or other interference.   The voltage drop is normal = considering I am turning off the alternator.  Are you using the LS1 coils or the = stock coils.  That could be a difference.  I wish I had lost my switch before = installing J

Problem 3: (THE BIG PROBLEM) My coolant doesn’t seem to be flowing = well, despite the fact that I have no thermostat and have welded the bypass = passage in the pump housing.  I ran for almost an hour at 3000 RPM with no apparent problem.  Going up to 4000 RPM after that the coolant = quickly overheated and boiled over.  Surprisingly, the radiator was just luke-warm. 

 

 

 B)  the Water pump sold to me by Adkins is really for = a 3rd gen and is running backward. – possible because the outlet side of = the rad seems to get warmer than the inlet side, but only slightly maybe and = it is closer to the turbo. 

 

Does your water pump housing look = very similar to the one in the attached pics?  If so, it's a 2nd gen.  I would expect that's what you would have  received from Atkins.  How do your belts run?  A second gen wp should = run the same direction as the eccentric shaft.  A 3rd gen runs = opposite.   

 

Yes, it looks almost exactly like = the one you showed (the spare 2nd gen I have sitting around) except = for the modifications to chop it down lower, change to AN fittings and block the thermostat.  Pump is turning same direction as e-shaft.  I = thought maybe a 3rd gen might also appear very similar but = unknowingly installing one would make the water run backward if you didn’t = reverse the rotation.  Should be easy enough to check.

  

E) Maybe the thermostat bypass passage is not properly welded = closed. – can’t see it because of the welded plate, will have to = look with a dental mirror.  F) ???? any input or other = ideas?

 

I was suspecting this as = well.  Are you positive that the water outlet from the housing didn't get welded shut? 

 

Where is your water temp sensor?   What does it show? 

 

The main coolant passage is open = for sure, the temp sensor is in the 1/8 NPT hole on that pump housing you showed = (the other holes are chopped off).  The sensor is visible when looking = in the outlet.   Water temp slowly rises like it should and after = about 30 min (at 3000 RPM) seemed to level off at about 150.  Upon going to = higher RPM it started to fluctuate (very quickly) between 160 and 260.  Oil = temp had leveled off at about 190.

 

After all this thinking, this is = becoming the most likely cause – easy to check, but very hard to = fix.

 

Thanks for you = help

 

David Leonard

The Rotary = Roster:

http://memb= ers.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C414A1.2EE18BC0--