From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Over-voltage protection/alternator failure
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2025 12:32:28 +0800
References: <list-3774911@lancaironline.net>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
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Message-Id: <2C154E59-98C5-4FF2-88FA-D098FC955D55@gmail.com>


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Thanks Finn

In the Glasair, there is very little room above the engine, so it's a =
small alternator and some fiddling and fabricating to fit it in.
=46rom memory it was out of a small Daihatsu.=20

Cheers

Steve


> On 4 Jan 2025, at 10:35=E2=80=AFam, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>=20
> On 1/3/2025 6:49 PM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com =
<mailto:stephen.izett@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Finn
>>=20
>> Really appreciate your reflections and design ideas.
>> I had graded the risk of my smallish ~45amp alternator going HV as =
low, and had =E2=80=98assumed' that in such an event the 40Ah battery =
bank and ~20amp system load would ballast the system voltage for some =
time (minutes) before a critical engine failure was imminent.
> I think if you had an ANL fuse or fusible link in the B+ lead and good =
batteries to absorb the rising voltage from a real runaway alternator =
situation, the fuse would probably blow and protect the batteries and =
system from damaging voltage. But I guess that would require some data =
on what the batteries can handle and what they will do compared to the =
characteristics of the ANL fuse (how much current for how long before it =
blows).
>> My engine monitor will let me know =E2=80=98audibly=E2=80=99  as soon =
as the system voltage exceeds 15 volts.
>>=20
>> =E2=80=98Assumptions=E2=80=99 right! I hadn=E2=80=99t got real =
confirmation of the real voltage/current over time in such an event.
>>=20
>> The truth is I have always struggled to get a handle on how a three =
wire automotive alternator works electrically.
>> The 'Sense', I thought was simply the feedback for the regulator =
which I have from memory via a 5 amp fuse to the engine buss.
> Yes, in the RX-7 it goes to the battery via the ignition key.
>=20
> With no OVP crowbar, I think you'll  be fine.
>=20
> I'm fairly sure that my OVP crowbar was what killed my alternator =
output. Very, very stupid to connect the OVP crowbar over the field =
winding. It should only have killed the power to the OVP relay. I =
obviously did not consider the failed open battery possibility and =
lazily connected it also  to the field winding terminal. If I'd know =
that the alternator could boot up with power supplied to the Sense =
terminal I would have done so. Especially as its current draw is only =
0.27A compared to 3.25A on the field terminal with alternator stopped.
>=20
> Note that the diode shown in the sense terminal may not exist. Some of =
the schematics in the Haynes Mazda RX-7 book does not show it.
>=20
>> But what is this =E2=80=98lamp/field=E2=80=99 wire??
> In my alternator schematic, you see those three diodes I blanked out =
in one of my posts? Once the alternator is producing power, they will =
supply the alternator field winding and voltage regulator with the =
needed voltage to operate. The field winding is the lower coil in the =
alternator schematic and rotates in the alternator. The three coils in =
Y-configuration are stationary and are what produces power on the B+ =
terminal (via a big bridge rectifier).
>=20
> However, on startup there is no magnetic field being produced by the =
field winding and the alternator won't produce power. You have to supply =
that either directly to the field winding (output from the three =
diodes), or to what I labeled "Startup/sense". In my alternator's =
voltage regulator there is a path from the startup/sense terminal via =
the top resistor to the top field winding. Applying power to that will =
gradually build up enough magnetic field for the alternator to start =
producing power. That supplied power could then be removed. But that =
terminal is also (or normally) being used by the voltage regulator to =
more accurately adjust the alternator's output voltage. Another =
possibility would have been to supply startup power to the field =
terminal via a diode after the OVP crowbar.
>=20
> In the RX-7 there is a "Alternator Warning" lamp relay. One side of =
its coil is connected to ignition (12V battery) and the other side to =
the field winding. When alternator is not producing power the field =
winding is near zero volts and the relay activates and the warning lamp =
comes on (like when you turn on the ignition key but engine not =
running). Once the alternator is running and producing power, the three =
internal diodes produces near +14V (or whatever the voltage regulator is =
set to) and the relay releases. I suppose that the relay coil initially =
helps supply voltage to the field winding.
>=20
> Other alternators may be different and some may even have enough =
residual magnetic field in them to be bootstapping themselves and not =
need external power to start.
>=20
>> In mine it=E2=80=99s not connected, and again I =E2=80=98assumed=E2=80=99=
 that as my idle is ~1900 rpm this was spinning enough to excite the =
system and self sustain the magnetic field at that point.
> Seems correct.
>> Perhaps I ought diode feed this from the Engine Buss?
> Don't think so, if your alternator comes on-line with no problem.
>>=20
>> I understood that because of the above characteristic once these =
alternators were generating power you couldn=E2=80=99t turn them off by =
de energising a =E2=80=98field=E2=80=99 etc. wire and therefore your =
plan to disconnect its output/ B terminal is required.
> That is correct. The internal diodes provide voltage to field winding =
and voltage regulator. I'm still uncertain on my theory that my OVP =
crowbar was able to short the field winding and thus collapse the field. =
But it's the only thing that makes sense. Still haven't hooked it up on =
the bench to test it.
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m thinking that in your circuit, when your Over Voltage =
relay is de-energised by the OVP popping the CB, like disconnecting an =
alternator from its battery, (at high RPM, not simply idle) might damage =
the alternator diodes/regulator though this is an acceptable outcome if =
it keeps the engine running in a critical situation.
> Good question and point. Definitely something to test with a running =
engine and loads. Disconnect the B+ lead and see what happens on the B+ =
terminal with a scope. I think I'd  have a big cap on the B+ terminal =
when first testing it to get an idea of how big the "load dump" surge =
will  be (hopefully absorbed by the cap).
>>=20
>> What I would like to know in order to make an realistic risk =
assessment is:
>> 1. How these alternators actually work electrically
> Hope I've clarified that above, but no idea on how your alternator may =
differ.
>> 2. What a High Voltage on the B lead will do over time.
>> 	A. In the immediate mSec of an event and
>> 	B Over the next 5 minutes
> My belief -- still subject to testing -- is that a big cap on the B+ =
terminal should protect it (and system in case of open battery failure).
>=20
> Of course in the event of a real  alternator runaway and an OVP relay =
disconnect be prepared for an exploded cap. I intend to put mine next to =
the alternator and definitely not in the cockpit.
>=20
> Another unknown is how robust the rectifier diodes in the alternator =
are. Will they simply fail open from the over voltage current spike =
absorbed by the batteries? Maybe there's no need for an ANL fuse in the =
B+ lead.
>=20
> In my RV-3B, Rusty simply put an ANL fuse in the B+ lead and there was =
no OVP circuit when I got it. I need to look up what alternator it is, =
but definitely smaller than my RX-7 alternator.
>=20
>>=20
>> How is your RV4?
>> I hope you can get back in the air soon.
> Hope this year, but considering how slowly I work, maybe not.
>=20
> I'll be putting my attention  on the RV-3B next so I have something to =
fly while I work on the RV-4.
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks again for the reflections.
>>=20
>> Steve Izett
>>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Thanks =
Finn<div><br></div><div>In the Glasair, there is very little room above =
the engine, so it's a small alternator and some fiddling and fabricating =
to fit it in.</div><div>=46rom memory it was out of a small =
Daihatsu.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>S=
teve</div><div><br =
id=3D"lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>On 4 Jan 2025, at 10:35=E2=80=AFam, Finn Lassen =
finn.lassen@verizon.net &lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div>

 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8">
 =20
  <div>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 1/3/2025 6:49 PM, Stephen Izett
      <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:stephen.izett@gmail.com">stephen.izett@gmail.com</a> =
wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8">
      Hi Finn
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Really appreciate your reflections and design ideas.</div>
      <div>I had graded the risk of my smallish ~45amp alternator going
        HV as low, and had =E2=80=98assumed' that in such an event the =
40Ah
        battery bank and ~20amp system load would ballast the system
        voltage for some time (minutes) before a critical engine failure
        was imminent.</div>
    </blockquote>
    I think if you had an ANL fuse or fusible link in the B+ lead and
    good batteries to absorb the rising voltage from a real runaway
    alternator situation, the fuse would probably blow and protect the
    batteries and system from damaging voltage. But I guess that would
    require some data on what the batteries can handle and what they
    will do compared to the characteristics of the ANL fuse (how much
    current for how long before it blows).<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div>My engine monitor will let me know =E2=80=98audibly=E2=80=99 =
&nbsp;as soon as the
        system voltage exceeds 15 volts.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>=E2=80=98Assumptions=E2=80=99 right! I hadn=E2=80=99t got =
real confirmation of the
        real voltage/current over time in such an event.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>The truth is I have always struggled to get a handle on how a
        three wire automotive alternator works electrically.</div>
      <div>The 'Sense', I thought was simply the feedback for the
        regulator which I have from memory via a 5 amp fuse to the
        engine buss. <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote><p>Yes, in the RX-7 it goes to the battery via the =
ignition key.</p><p>With no OVP crowbar, I think you'll&nbsp; be =
fine.</p><p>I'm fairly sure that my OVP crowbar was what killed my =
alternator
      output. Very, very stupid to connect the OVP crowbar over the
      field winding. It should only have killed the power to the OVP
      relay. I obviously did not consider the failed open battery
      possibility and lazily connected it also&nbsp; to the field =
winding
      terminal. If I'd know that the alternator could boot up with power
      supplied to the Sense terminal I would have done so. Especially as
      its current draw is only 0.27A compared to 3.25A on the field
      terminal with alternator stopped.</p><p>Note that the diode shown =
in the sense terminal may not exist.
      Some of the schematics in the Haynes Mazda RX-7 book does not show
      it.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div>But what is this =E2=80=98lamp/field=E2=80=99 wire?? <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote><p>In my alternator schematic, you see those three =
diodes I blanked
      out in one of my posts? Once the alternator is producing power,
      they will supply the alternator field winding and voltage
      regulator with the needed voltage to operate. The field winding is
      the lower coil in the alternator schematic and rotates in the
      alternator. The three coils in Y-configuration are stationary and
      are what produces power on the B+ terminal (via a big bridge
      rectifier).<br>
    </p><p>However, on startup there is no magnetic field being produced =
by
      the field winding and the alternator won't produce power. You have
      to supply that either directly to the field winding (output from
      the three diodes), or to what I labeled "Startup/sense". In my
      alternator's voltage regulator there is a path from the
      startup/sense terminal via the top resistor to the top field
      winding. Applying power to that will gradually build up enough
      magnetic field for the alternator to start producing power. That
      supplied power could then be removed. But that terminal is also
      (or normally) being used by the voltage regulator to more
      accurately adjust the alternator's output voltage. Another
      possibility would have been to supply startup power to the field
      terminal via a diode after the OVP crowbar.<br>
    </p><p>In the RX-7 there is a "Alternator Warning" lamp relay. One =
side
      of its coil is connected to ignition (12V battery) and the other
      side to the field winding. When alternator is not producing power
      the field winding is near zero volts and the relay activates and
      the warning lamp comes on (like when you turn on the ignition key
      but engine not running). Once the alternator is running and
      producing power, the three internal diodes produces near +14V (or
      whatever the voltage regulator is set to) and the relay releases.
      I suppose that the relay coil initially helps supply voltage to
      the field winding.</p><p>Other alternators may be different and =
some may even have enough
      residual magnetic field in them to be bootstapping themselves and
      not need external power to start.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div>In mine it=E2=80=99s not connected, and again I =E2=80=98assume=
d=E2=80=99 that as my
        idle is ~1900 rpm this was spinning enough to excite the system
        and self sustain the magnetic field at that point.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Seems correct.<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div>Perhaps I ought diode feed this from the Engine Buss?</div>
    </blockquote>
    Don't think so, if your alternator comes on-line with no =
problem.<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I understood that because of the above characteristic once
        these alternators were generating power you couldn=E2=80=99t =
turn them
        off by de energising a =E2=80=98field=E2=80=99 etc. wire and =
therefore your plan
        to disconnect its output/ B terminal is required.</div>
    </blockquote>
    That is correct. The internal diodes provide voltage to field
    winding and voltage regulator. I'm still uncertain on my theory that
    my OVP crowbar was able to short the field winding and thus collapse
    the field. But it's the only thing that makes sense. Still haven't
    hooked it up on the bench to test it.<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I=E2=80=99m thinking that in your circuit, when your Over =
Voltage
        relay is de-energised by the OVP popping the CB, like
        disconnecting an alternator from its battery, (at high RPM, not
        simply idle) might damage the alternator diodes/regulator though
        this is an acceptable outcome if it keeps the engine running in
        a critical situation.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Good question and point. Definitely something to test with a running
    engine and loads. Disconnect the B+ lead and see what happens on the
    B+ terminal with a scope. I think I'd&nbsp; have a big cap on the B+
    terminal when first testing it to get an idea of how big the "load
    dump" surge will&nbsp; be (hopefully absorbed by the cap).<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>What I would like to know in order to make an realistic risk
        assessment is:</div>
      <div>1. How these alternators actually work electrically <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Hope I've clarified that above, but no idea on how your alternator
    may differ.<br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div>2. What a High Voltage on the B lead will do over time.</div>
      <div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>A.
        In the immediate mSec of an event and</div>
      <div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>B
        Over the next 5 minutes</div>
    </blockquote><p>My belief -- still subject to testing -- is that a =
big cap on the
      B+ terminal should protect it (and system in case of open battery
      failure).<br>
    </p><p>Of course in the event of a real&nbsp; alternator runaway and =
an OVP
      relay disconnect be prepared for an exploded cap. I intend to put
      mine next to the alternator and definitely not in the =
cockpit.</p><p>Another unknown is how robust the rectifier diodes in the
      alternator are. Will they simply fail open from the over voltage
      current spike absorbed by the batteries? Maybe there's no need for
      an ANL fuse in the B+ lead.</p><p>In my RV-3B, Rusty simply put an =
ANL fuse in the B+ lead and
      there was no OVP circuit when I got it. I need to look up what
      alternator it is, but definitely smaller than my RX-7 =
alternator.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>How is your RV4?</div>
      <div>I hope you can get back in the air soon.</div>
    </blockquote><p>Hope this year, but considering how slowly I work, =
maybe not.</p><p>I'll be putting my attention&nbsp; on the RV-3B next so =
I have
      something to fly while I work on the RV-4.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:list-3774793@lancaironline.net">=

      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Thanks again for the reflections.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Steve Izett</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div>

</div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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