X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" Received: from pmg.Logan.com ([207.170.160.161] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.4.0) with ESMTPS id 3771154 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 19:56:52 -0500 Received: from pmg.Logan.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 2C13F30131 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 19:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'stephen.izett@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=pmg.Logan.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="stephen.izett@gmail.com"; helo=mail-pl1-f179.google.com; client-ip=209.85.214.179 Received: from mail-pl1-f179.google.com (mail-pl1-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTPS for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 19:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pl1-f179.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-2167141dfa1so135751675ad.1 for ; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:56:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1735693004; x=1736297804; darn=lancaironline.net; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version:from :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ApJn3QPEeS97JABRBxEaik6G6Y88lLsHxf4Z5ib3Sn8=; b=CrcXQoPn4KEBfxOr3HLJnMl7AfEFt99/H2KXALm7244DvXSRu/lKpczGUFV+vZX3HU 3H8Paqpug7bpRoT6reyfQY6QwrZjGBiJJZHT+mDREGs6s063pZRLcXPm/6KQBqmWwkO1 rfGu7b+1m75qQiQ8dza+2ncRhLRcgczppACfGU8KWxCeXmZHN3tDFPAodQS6MkPMKhyH Ue9KqGf9vRQ8GaVRFkYPC4Peu+hg0VCMzf7Q7bob45J2xZ5feDaxP8ovsOdWv7c3d1Sx nWDCjvDOLEmBrLcAI1GfeAI6OaH8Me6LvWybKxIJRdtvoeaX2FZM1G53EfZvqzfKxgjE felQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1735693004; x=1736297804; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ApJn3QPEeS97JABRBxEaik6G6Y88lLsHxf4Z5ib3Sn8=; b=c8nE4Vp/3E+693wIrmRZmT/EaPlD/55cNq5CebrAqViIdodUJQxCQ0v9T2pQ+gE9dn A0JjcVIWCMZqnASLi4F3I+5VwChQhLKSzTdLJtQCYEGFbJV3i7pSKPzUq/SSumdJAstt SyvucjmfI5YzSOgAVZSJ4fjzXDX/dsgIysA+RQoBftPs5Ie9s2fD1M8eAJvAl61o0+7g IJdPxogjOECB4KpygFsdEseSAm3y1WBjFW3uBjg0CqTxpAZ/WOO22Cejz/JT8GuYd42L GET5VKrPIFH96Ztr+z8Fm/RoM6xq9KO5faca3NCj3oz5i6gzMEcEKcFORjDLJVJPNl+o KT8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx2l8MOeYaF1wC37jAwz3/hRtQA87XPxohBKGIjW0wAPeoUjrcw qCB8FndmL35jPD2fp8UNhp3b6VVk/eYtgup3OB5StKauX5oIb5vuG1ioMQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncvqd5WqCjqXIVu0trPJ7kvnkXtP6uYIW7S9hKPHPHnZo0y7hDrMVnrhAExhLPX HXRUgBMLOGlmYItooxGmn7+4nXY6bi7aYIBE/TD2GbL6uuDFtNpSOxhladJBaDGK4u6Gboc4zzK mAMc6SgXeysvX0uSM9WA+dazOp7VLcOS8HgJP/77QSN10SdsRWmbcg9DGQr8/GiZrNDezv4nsg+ MXusRBjp+m6Wfi7JPN9xA7pwd9FNJo9Of8xVWpXSuig2I7CqKv3uPW71F+g9yXX9ZqAIUr0m/Ez X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGEP2aZ0t4NRK0uoD/y3RZnCXPXF4papAw5x49hq+OB8JzYYB9g+prBtqiO2HTGbt7Lk9Tssg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:f643:b0:216:59f1:c7d9 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-219e6d599famr688705745ad.19.1735693004307; Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([1.126.106.86]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-219dc9d4458sm201009945ad.114.2024.12.31.16.56.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 31 Dec 2024 16:56:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A602345F-183D-4330-8AB5-E61D47AE17FA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.200.121\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] N214FL forced landing Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2025 08:56:29 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.200.121) X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain DMARC_PASS -0.1 DMARC pass policy FREEMAIL_FROM 0.001 Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to DNSWL was blocked. 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See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [vansairforce.net] --Apple-Mail=_A602345F-183D-4330-8AB5-E61D47AE17FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Sorry to hear of your mishap Finn, glad your Ok. Much appreciate your reflection and to revaluate my own risk I agonised over the electrical risk / failure modes. Opting to =E2=80=98ki= ss' and not seek full redundancy. Your experience brings a sober reconsideration of my assumptions and = decisions which I=E2=80=99m trying to recollect and would value others = critique. My system: # Single automotive Alternator - Fused B-lead - NO Over-voltage = Crowbar circuit # Twin 25Ah batteries connected via dual battery isolator switch = Off / A / B / BOTH. # Engine Power through Primary SPST switch with backup SPST = upstream of current shunt # Primary and Backup Fuel Pumps with automatic backup activation = on low fuel pressure # Engine Fuel pumps fed from Header/ReserveTank. Header fed via = single wing tank via Primary and Backup transfer pumps # EC2 redundant ECU's # Armoured CAS wiring # =E2=80=98Audible' EFIS Alarms for Volts, Amps, Fuel Pressure, = Transfer Fuel Flow, Fuel Level, Gear etc. Pre Flight Testing Before Engine Start # Measure individual battery volts while 2 x main 25Ah batteries = disconnected (Isolator switch in Off position) via EFIS on its own = battery backup delta V < 0.3v if OK then switch isolator to Both After Engine Start # Check Alternator Charging Both A, B and back to Both = batteries. # Test Both Primary and Backup Engine Power Switches # Test Engine Fuel Pumps - Switch Off Main Pump to test auto = activation of backup, reset/arm # Test Fuel Transfer Pumps - Switch Off Main Transfer Pump to = test auto activation of backup, reset/arm # Test ECU B and Coils After Engine shut down # Turn battery Isolator Switch to Off position and note Battery = delta V before turning Off EFIS My Key Failure mode consideration / assumptions Alternator - Short Circuit (Low risk but catastrophic) must be = protected against via fuse Over Voltage (Low risk) - EFIS Alarm - On reflection = perhaps I ought include a Crow Bar but it does introduce = complexity/danger Batteries - Open Circuit (Significant risk) - Solution - two = batteries tied together reducing chances of failure and protects should = failure occur Shorted Cell (Low risk) - Outcome ???? Battery fire - = Halon extinguisher=20 Testing before and after flight picks up failure and = lowers risk=20 Keep Batteries away fro heat and vibration Second battery provides more air time in case of = Alternator failure though introduces significant weight Crank Angle Sensor -=20 Failure is catastrophic so armour and attention added=20 Power Switching -=20 Failure (High risk) therefore backup required=20 No Relays as they introduce complexity Key Questions=09 Crow Bar on Alternator? Should I have gone with AeroElectriic circuit with Backup Buss = etc. ? Appreciate peoples thoughts. Steve Izett - Perth Western Australia Glasair Super II RG=20 Renesis 4 port EC2 EM3 RD1C Prop MTV 7 Elec =09 Steve Izett. > On 1 Jan 2025, at 3:55=E2=80=AFam, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net = wrote: >=20 > Not sure if I should re-post the following and its two referenced = threads here. >=20 > https://vansairforce.net/threads/n214fl-forced-landing.232017/ >=20 > The battery failure mode must definitely be made well-known for = electrical-dependent engine installations. >=20 > Finn >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A602345F-183D-4330-8AB5-E61D47AE17FA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Sorry to hear = of your mishap Finn, glad your Ok.

Much appreciate = your reflection and to revaluate my own risk

I = agonised over the electrical risk / failure modes. Opting to =E2=80=98kiss= ' and not seek full redundancy.
Your experience brings a sober = reconsideration of my assumptions and decisions which I=E2=80=99m trying = to recollect and would value others = critique.

My system:
# Single = automotive Alternator - Fused B-lead - NO Over-voltage Crowbar = circuit
# Twin 25Ah batteries connected = via dual battery isolator switch Off / A / B / BOTH.
# Engine = Power through Primary SPST switch with backup SPST upstream of current = shunt
= # Primary and Backup Fuel Pumps with automatic backup activation = on low fuel pressure
# Engine Fuel pumps fed from = Header/ReserveTank. Header fed via single wing tank via Primary and = Backup transfer pumps
# EC2 redundant = ECU's
= # Armoured CAS wiring
# =E2=80=98Audible' EFIS Alarms = for Volts, Amps, Fuel Pressure, Transfer Fuel Flow, Fuel Level, Gear = etc.

Pre Flight Testing
Before = Engine Start
# Measure individual battery = volts while 2 x main 25Ah batteries disconnected (Isolator switch in Off = position) via EFIS on its own battery backup  delta V < 0.3v if = OK then switch isolator to Both
After Engine = Start
= # Check Alternator Charging Both A, B and back to Both = batteries.
# Test Both Primary and Backup = Engine Power Switches
# Test Engine Fuel Pumps - Switch = Off Main Pump to test auto activation of backup, = reset/arm
# Test Fuel Transfer Pumps - = Switch Off Main Transfer Pump to test auto activation of backup, = reset/arm
# Test ECU B and = Coils
= After Engine shut down
# Turn battery Isolator Switch to = Off position and note Battery delta V before turning Off = EFIS

My Key Failure mode consideration / = assumptions
Alternator -
= Short Circuit (Low risk but catastrophic) must be protected = against via fuse
Over Voltage (Low risk) - = EFIS Alarm - On reflection perhaps I ought include a Crow Bar but it = does introduce complexity/danger
Batteries -
= Open Circuit (Significant risk) - Solution - two batteries tied = together reducing chances of failure and protects should failure = occur
Shorted Cell (Low risk) - Outcome ???? Battery = fire - Halon extinguisher 
Testing before and after = flight picks up failure and lowers risk 
= Keep Batteries away fro heat and vibration
= Second battery provides more air time in case of Alternator = failure though introduces significant weight
Crank = Angle Sensor - 
Failure is catastrophic = so armour and attention added 
Power = Switching - 
Failure (High risk) = therefore backup required 
No Relays as they = introduce complexity

Key Questions =
Crow Bar on = Alternator?
Should I have gone with = AeroElectriic circuit with Backup Buss etc. = ?


Appreciate peoples = thoughts.

Steve Izett - Perth Western = Australia
Glasair Super II RG 
Renesis 4 port = EC2 EM3 RD1C Prop MTV 7 Elec
=




<= div>




=
Steve Izett.



On 1 Jan 2025, at 3:55=E2=80=AFam, Finn Lassen = finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:


= --Apple-Mail=_A602345F-183D-4330-8AB5-E61D47AE17FA--