X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" Received: from pmg.Logan.com ([207.170.160.161] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.4.0) with ESMTPS id 3680783 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 06 Nov 2024 04:13:06 -0500 Received: from pmg.Logan.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 133FC24E56 for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2024 04:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'stephen.izett@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=pmg.Logan.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="stephen.izett@gmail.com"; helo=mail-pf1-f174.google.com; client-ip=209.85.210.174 Received: from mail-pf1-f174.google.com (mail-pf1-f174.google.com [209.85.210.174]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTPS for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2024 04:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pf1-f174.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-7206304f93aso6111015b3a.0 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2024 01:13:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1730884378; x=1731489178; darn=lancaironline.net; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version:from :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pslxE4Y4XCa2KaDt5//Hj8+LX1DspLzPpjAqTlGuruM=; b=HRBN3x0iJOAakL+IY2i/b+js9HYcHHnEz8nD9kQL2jYzEOshDGPOBtmVrbPj/C/IsF sfFnStTPHGLlVQ7CuGBudPfDtAzdoTu4JYFIkV0XOwChaagHQS8hhGbWDORS91KbQK6f rv8ftm0KMJC/6srj1A6sLd+Tpd0kFA8xXmHK2t5QexGkzPIZZnNRKoXR+gd/7Y3j9Rrb u6IwD5nM1T+dRwYVfHNqVHV1MgYV9eXkmSL03tZJmy647caYQBQPiB83dr5psHAHE5dr 0SBMfYiwKQOSWY7xHO6x1nmD55w9uW0UxbLSXbM3OOkXPSV1jWm4c0KT2XY5lzFoXezD taWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1730884378; x=1731489178; h=message-id:in-reply-to:to:references:date:subject:mime-version:from :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pslxE4Y4XCa2KaDt5//Hj8+LX1DspLzPpjAqTlGuruM=; b=by8KxbpvrxCAd1CmK9olkv3ujmygN+PZlfuM6oWBJNdfr61auBQdTbRiSWtbMfaGTY B1sJaqK5CpfBsPvQIKJTpjRtoiciFiUYDMpVM72W8Jt1J++9VCsoPZk3tKZEzL1B5zJI cBI6HksxN5z6kHO5mZp0XMYwsDJVehJDgAducK1cTDMnSade05qzvEYw1AbewIzWtVKm JusVOCwJErqDkWl1pkfoJpLWlJkjqmtMvIX0BxLs3TQA9U01CynyjLJsxUVtO/VbpvrA BVr8iof7NAMijowultX4WOGFfF0bHK8p0Bfm/uh7tPgTtD2inw2IU8zrxqH4uOqJrZFQ nMsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxQC9uDpyi7mMNTnZzHP++sReKaxEwf5GMGiSHV1pQMkWN8Gk69 R2dBhznaZmHMdICrmjsn+7y63uMN/w8yXbwc54VnRqSBEbM+H7aTFCQInanvLjw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IE9n2LPZaqmaKOpBEGdd3re27yR47PSjSyeElYDlnk6O9QHiYFYcXp6rraqsUUN3VmbgCHOVw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2e12:b0:71e:452:13dc with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-720c9908550mr25230617b3a.13.1730884377658; Wed, 06 Nov 2024 01:12:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2001:8003:8809:f400:e016:9632:9114:e4bb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-720bc315aafsm11118740b3a.197.2024.11.06.01.12.56 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Nov 2024 01:12:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A9EA64E8-3001-4F7E-B131-1B5A7997C69D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3818.100.11.1.3\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Renesis oil pressure Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 17:12:43 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <75739658-AEA3-4A88-A94B-23F5515F8681@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3818.100.11.1.3) X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 AWL -0.042 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain DKIM_VALID_EF -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from envelope-from domain DMARC_PASS -0.1 DMARC pass policy FREEMAIL_FROM 0.001 Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider FREEMAIL_REPLY 1 From and body contain different freemails HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to DNSWL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#DnsBlocklists-dnsbl-block for more information. RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 0.001 Good reputation (+3) RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL 0.001 Mailspike good senders SPF_HELO_NONE 0.001 SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record SPF_PASS -0.001 SPF: sender matches SPF record URIBL_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [racingbeat.com] --Apple-Mail=_A9EA64E8-3001-4F7E-B131-1B5A7997C69D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Andrew Thats super helpful, so you have 80psi.=20 Do you recall what rpm=E2=80=99s you get 80psi. Eg. Is it 60psi at 3K = 65psi @4K etc. Is the rear relief regulator a solid step or gradual? Remind me what cooler you=E2=80=99ve got and the size of the hoses? I originally had an Rx7 turbo cooler with a smaller AN hose.=20 Now I have a Mocal 44 row x 235mm Cooler with AN10 hoses and fittings. I=E2=80=99m not expecting a flow reduction with my setup of large hoses = and cooler down stream of the engine but I agree I need to test it. Ive got to work out how to =E2=80=99T' into the front cover without = spending $$$. Thanks again Andrew. Steve > On 5 Nov 2024, at 12:38=E2=80=AFpm, Andrew Martin = andrew@martinag.com.au wrote: >=20 > Yeah mine is 4 port series 1. > Nothing to compare, oil pressure always been around 80 psi at rear = iron. > Early on I had a flow restriction issue from the original oil cooler, = which resulted in high temps, hense my earlier suggestion to check = pressure at front cover. > Andrew >=20 > On Tue, 5 Nov 2024, 10:38 Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = , > wrote: >> Hi Andrew.=20 >>=20 >> I have used various weight oils. Not a huge difference. >> Is your engine a Seres 1 or 2? >> Do you have a log of oil pressures and temps to compare with mine. >> I was under the impression that other rotaries increase in pressure = substantially with rpm. >>=20 >> Steve >>=20 >>> On 5 Nov 2024, at 8:48=E2=80=AFam, Andrew Martin = andrew@martinag.com.au = > = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Steve, why such a heavy weight oil?=20 >>> Maybe try a 5w30 mineral or semi syn oil. >>> Andrew >>>=20 >>> On Tue, 5 Nov 2024, 06:56 Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = , > wrote: >>>> Thanks Doug. Yes, Racingbeat does have some helpful material. >>>>=20 >>>> My question is the =E2=80=98why=E2=80=99 the lowish oil pressure on = RPM rise? >>>>=20 >>>> NOTE: I did have a very high rpm and therefore high pressure event = on initial start years ago that may have damaged something in the oil = system path. >>>> I=E2=80=99m endeavouring to discover what this might be. >>>>=20 >>>> Recent and consistent data: (Renesis Series #1 4 Port with MT CS = Prop - Oil Pressure reading tested within ~2psi, Oil is Synthetic 20W60, = 44 Row Mocal Oil Cooler) >>>>=20 >>>> Lined Up Before TakeOff OAT 74F 60psi @ 2100rpm OilT = 142F >>>> Wide Open Throttle +10 seconds 65psi @ 7200rpm >>>> +2 mins (WOT and CS Prop Set) 51psi @ 6400rpm OilT = peaks 207F >>>>=20 >>>> So Oil Pressure only rises from 60 to 65psi after 2100->7200rpm = (5100rpm increase) >>>> Oil temp increase & viscosity decease has Oil Pressure then settle = down to 51psi. >>>>=20 >>>> I think I have clarified in the last day that the Renesis series 1 = front cover to front iron path uses a metal gasket =E2=80=98without' an = o-ring. >>>> This discounts the possibility of an o-ring failure causing oil to = be dumped back into sump just after the pump. >>>> It appears I was led astray by a schematic drawing that showed the = RX8 series 1 oil system as having an o-ring seal in the front cover to = iron path. >>>>=20 >>>> So, I am now investigating the likelihood of the following possible = failure points and the work required before committing and jumping into = getting dirty.=20 >>>> 1. Pump - Could the pump be damaged? >>>> 2. Front relief valve - Could the Spring break or otherwise be = cracking at a much lower pressure? >>>> 3. Rear relief valve - Same as for 2. Above. >>>> 4. Thermal Pellet delete - Could I have messed this up or damaged = the oil path when I replaced the OEM pellet with Tracy=E2=80=99s part. >>>>=20 >>>> My assumptions include: >>>> 1. The Mocal 44 Row Oil Cooler will have a lower pressure drop than = the OEM cooler/s >>>> 2. Oil Pressure should rise to Rear Relief Valve Pressure + some, = maybe 75psi @ >6000rpm in a Series #1. >>>>=20 >>>> Appreciate further consideration as I try and figure this out. >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks >>>>=20 >>>> Steve=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On 4 Nov 2024, at 8:31=E2=80=AFpm, DOUGLAS LOMHEIM = dlomheim@aol.com > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =EF=BB=BFRacing Beat has always provided good background info, and = here=E2=80=99s a link to their discussion / products to increase oil = pressure=E2=80=A6 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Rotary Tech Tips: Oil Cooling Tips >>>>> racingbeat.com >>>>> = Rotary Tech Tips: Oil Cooling Tips = >>>>> racingbeat.com = = >>>>> = = >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Doug >>>>>=20 >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_A9EA64E8-3001-4F7E-B131-1B5A7997C69D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks = Andrew

Thats super helpful, so you have = 80psi. 
Do you recall what rpm=E2=80=99s you get 80psi. = Eg. Is it 60psi at 3K 65psi @4K etc. Is the rear relief regulator a = solid step or gradual?

Remind me what cooler = you=E2=80=99ve got and the size of the hoses?
I originally had = an Rx7 turbo cooler with a smaller AN hose. 
Now I have a = Mocal 44 row x 235mm Cooler with AN10 hoses and = fittings.

I=E2=80=99m not expecting a flow = reduction with my setup of large hoses and cooler down stream of the = engine but I agree I need to test it.
Ive got to work out how = to =E2=80=99T' into the front cover without spending = $$$.

Thanks again = Andrew.

Steve


=





On 5 Nov 2024, at 12:38=E2=80=AFpm, Andrew Martin = andrew@martinag.com.au <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

Yeah mine is 4 port series 1.
Nothing = to compare, oil pressure always been around 80 psi at rear = iron.
Early on I had a flow restriction issue = from the original oil cooler, which resulted in high temps, hense my = earlier suggestion to check pressure at front = cover.
Andrew

On Tue, 5 Nov 2024, 10:38 Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com, = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Hi = Andrew. 

I have used various weight oils. Not a = huge difference.
Is your engine a Seres 1 or 2?
Do = you have a log of oil pressures and temps to compare with = mine.
I was under the impression that other rotaries increase = in pressure substantially with rpm.

Steve


Steve, why such a heavy weight = oil? 
Maybe try a 5w30 mineral or semi syn = oil.
Andrew

On Tue, 5 = Nov 2024, 06:56 Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:
Thanks Doug. Yes, Racingbeat does = have some helpful material.

My question is the = =E2=80=98why=E2=80=99 the lowish oil pressure on RPM = rise?

NOTE: I did have a very high rpm and = therefore high pressure event on initial start years ago that may have = damaged something in the oil system path.
I=E2=80=99m = endeavouring to discover what this might = be.

Recent and consistent data: (Renesis Series = #1 4 Port with MT CS Prop - Oil Pressure reading tested within ~2psi, = Oil is Synthetic 20W60, 44 Row Mocal Oil = Cooler)

= Lined Up Before TakeOff OAT 74F  60psi @ 2100rpm OilT = 142F
Wide Open = Throttle +10 seconds =   65psi @ = 7200rpm
+2 mins = (WOT and CS Prop Set) = 51psi @ 6400rpm OilT peaks 207F

So = Oil Pressure only rises from 60 to 65psi after 2100->7200rpm (5100rpm = increase)
Oil temp increase & viscosity decease has Oil = Pressure then settle down to 51psi.

I = think I have clarified in the last day that the Renesis series 1 front = cover to front iron path uses a metal gasket =E2=80=98without' an = o-ring.
This discounts the possibility of an o-ring failure = causing oil to be dumped back into sump just after the = pump.
It appears I was led astray by a schematic drawing that = showed the RX8 series 1 oil system as having an o-ring seal in the front = cover to iron path.

So, I am now investigating = the likelihood of the following possible failure points and the work = required before committing and jumping into getting = dirty. 
1. Pump - Could the pump be damaged?
2. = Front relief valve - Could the Spring break or otherwise be cracking at = a much lower pressure?
3. Rear relief valve - Same as for 2. = Above.
4. Thermal Pellet delete - Could I have messed this up = or damaged the oil path when I replaced the OEM pellet with Tracy=E2=80=99= s part.

My assumptions = include:
1. The Mocal 44 Row Oil Cooler will have a lower = pressure drop than the OEM cooler/s
2. Oil Pressure should = rise to Rear Relief Valve Pressure + some, maybe 75psi  @ = >6000rpm in a Series #1.

Appreciate = further consideration as I try and figure this = out.

Thanks

Steve <= /div>






On 4 Nov 2024, at = 8:31=E2=80=AFpm, DOUGLAS LOMHEIM dlomheim@aol.com = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> = wrote:

=EF=BB=BFRacing = Beat has always provided good background info, and here=E2=80=99s a link = to their discussion / products to increase oil = pressure=E2=80=A6

<favicon.ico>


Doug

Sent from my = iPhone



= --Apple-Mail=_A9EA64E8-3001-4F7E-B131-1B5A7997C69D--