X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Andrew Martin andrew@martinag.com.au" Received: from pmg.Logan.com ([207.170.160.161] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.4.0) with ESMTPS id 3675466 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 02 Nov 2024 07:02:05 -0400 Received: from pmg.Logan.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 7ECE12CF3F for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2024 07:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received-SPF: none (martinag.com.au: No applicable sender policy available) receiver=pmg.Logan.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="andrew@martinag.com.au"; helo=mail-ot1-f43.google.com; client-ip=209.85.210.43 Received: from mail-ot1-f43.google.com (mail-ot1-f43.google.com [209.85.210.43]) by pmg.Logan.com (Proxmox) with ESMTPS for ; Sat, 2 Nov 2024 07:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ot1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-715716974baso1504429a34.1 for ; Sat, 02 Nov 2024 04:02:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=martinag-com-au.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1730545318; x=1731150118; darn=lancaironline.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rzmxy5nTl9kNXkTNWlMqs2NDXRmpnbFaAQAxdUJd708=; b=WoUGFqyjgHvutJvrUc2S4qjlDDkYCVfsRU1Sa+STi7yQd4zADV3gvxJZkeaBs20v7f bJAf6wNOzKvSQyp+wE5W/3sweBG+fxaTfY+LrJEiP+GwucfCA1aIUXMdco/35TJ7cUwo A3OPfjgAL80f1etkIJ47jFNg5g8+Slr8u8fUZVKvVvZDiTlGbFHkKYZ+NpDL2brnoaPr ehsHyjIB5oHpOW4ebT46SC6CE1qixjza+3e/qFtUvamBX2ClVCRafxuuHrgy+7oXsddW Oe4To1/90xctUqPQFQQ1iKz0HECVNQtznIeFsXS/kz21z1Ezvg5B2o58h0+rjS0O5Pqf pmOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1730545318; x=1731150118; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=rzmxy5nTl9kNXkTNWlMqs2NDXRmpnbFaAQAxdUJd708=; b=E5I94L7AWk5gMG+BZ/j+tP2+/egf9AdqjQUsNnGCIAzL2ggHL8gGq2rAvKjT7ws18H bvhMwCQ+u99XNzvW3Lwzu6q1DEKJh/YafpdDsY2V345+/RF119JvP/16ouMDGbEZ07MZ ABM0pWsydgKq3VVFQXaEqnX2QvwxU3kYpAlI2jF4YsCzwlSro/6koR2Av8LecYVmdBoI FpGFrZ673aXqti7PHYn4dU6E+bk89el4dAAsjfBch8f4JetuokCaWl+LlFQjeqrQ26eT u778udPji/bZY78gQyHSUc6jKfZrloHSN5HgrTTkBcAGJfa9NdKI+Nngd2MMaOkvk0XJ 7KcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx/vDqRXwH5Wt5xdUNDJ+7TJvdOJKYxKah5WFZrcZEunfCP/jBF KbMLA5GKoZjLjYJhmwxtdPjyFI+Y8I3O2Ozt7cMCUa4RVKM43KF32pFTS+VoGtu6m8jM9W0SFZI 9MHgkrkIXm96JmMxMNeETHoQAtvp82DTMi0chgFWbO2fzgJw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEtO9qsyAqlmSmtf9FRtCQ2T4zRh1xKFdJ6zmwSwwaveRAO7Of+ws1S4didNaPm/kCrAJdSE0g/zf7FfbIxo/M= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1d48:b0:2e2:de27:db08 with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2e94c2e5882mr9758426a91.23.1730543791436; Sat, 02 Nov 2024 03:36:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2024 18:36:16 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Genesis Series 1 Oil Pressure To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f5117b0625eb9f6e" X-SPAM-LEVEL: Spam detection results: 0 BAYES_00 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% DKIM_SIGNED 0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature DMARC_MISSING 0.1 Missing DMARC policy HTML_MESSAGE 0.001 HTML included in message KAM_MXURI 1.5 URI begins with a mail exchange prefix, i.e. mx.[...] RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED 0.001 ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to DNSWL was blocked. 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[lancaironline.net,flyrotary.com] WEIRD_PORT 0.001 Uses non-standard port number for HTTP --000000000000f5117b0625eb9f6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Steve. I think we got same engine as you. Been awhile since I operated it so memory may be wrong. But pretty sure it sits on 80psi. I did the thermal pellet delete mod during the original build. it was a part that Tracey supplied with all the other bits. You may be lucky enough to have enough room to do this mod while engine is mounted in the plane. Some people modified the eshaft jets to increase oil to rotors, this I assume would lower oil pressure also. I did not do this. For series 1 Renesis only. I would first check pressure at front cover oil port, relief in there is set to something like 125psi to protect the pump from blocked cooler, if you plumbed a gauge and a needle valve in series(or, if your game, clamp the hose) you could gradually restrict oil flow until relief opens. This confirms that everything at front cover end is ok. A difference in pressure at front cover & rear iron sensor indicates pressure drop through cooler, hoses & filter(if other than OEM). This does not matter too much unless your seeing front cover relief pressure at lower than your operating rpm. Next place to look requires engine teardown. Andrew On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, 16:15 Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com, < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Hi again Finn > > A qualification. Mazda used a lower oil pressure for the Renesis Series 1 > than previous engine series, and then went back to higher pressure for th= e > series 2 Renesis. > My understanding is that the thermal pellet in the front end of the > Eccentric Shaft, when cold is open allowing the oil to dump into the pan > rather than when warmed up it closes and the oil in the eccentric now > squirts into the rotors cooling them. > I believe this is about emission control at startup and that for racing > and our use, better to delete this thermostat and block permanently this > path meaning oil is always cooling the rotors. > If the thermal pellet fails, it does so open and so stopping the rotor oi= l > cooling. Not a good thing and can cook the oil o-rings on the rotor sides= . > > Open to being corrected. > > Steve > > > > > > On 1 Nov 2024, at 10:50=E2=80=AFpm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.c= om < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > > Thanks Finn. > > > > I should have mentioned the first thing I did was put a gauge to check > the EFIS reported oil pressure. They were both reading within 2psi so I > have taken it to be accurate to within about 2 psi. > > Thanks for the data. > > > > Steve > > > > > >> On 1 Nov 2024, at 9:23=E2=80=AFpm, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net= < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> > >> Startup oil pressure depends a bit on OAT. > >> Recent example: OAT 82, oil pressure 80 @ 2,700 RPM dropping as low as > 50 @ 2,300 RPM after 80 seconds. > >> 67 @ 5,900 RPM during takeoff climb. (Over propped.) > >> Cruising along 68 psi @ 5,200 RPM, 62 OAT, 4,000' > >> > >> Sampling some logs I found 74 psi @ 6,500 RPM. > >> > >> I would say the relief valve is somewhere between 80 and 90 psi. > Normally runs at 60 - 70 psi. > >> > >> Factory (unopened) Renesis 4 -port, I guess series 1. I don't know wha= t > happens when you replace the pellet with something else. > >> > >> I too had heard that the Renesis ran at higher oil pressures and > foolishly ordered and installed a 150 psi oil pressure sensor. > >> > >> I guess 50 psi sounds a bit low at higher RPMs. Check the sensor for > accuracy. > >> > >> Finn > >> > >> > >> > >> On 11/1/2024 8:17 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: > >>> Hi People. > >>> > >>> Could I pick your brains. > >>> > >>> I=E2=80=99ve been flying a Series 1 Renesis 4 port in the Glasair for= some > years now. > >>> I have always thought the oil pressure was a bit low but I=E2=80=99ve= now got > some concerns and would appreciate any wisdom. > >>> > >>> I=E2=80=99ve read that the Series 1 Renesis has lower Oil pressure th= an the > previous rotaries and then the Series 2 had the pressure increased. > >>> Some have changed the rear iron relief valve for an older series with > a high bypass pressure and then shimmed the front cover relief valve to > enable a higher pressure. > >>> > >>> Ours has always had a cold start pressure (measured at the back iron > oil input) of around 64 psi that drops to around 50 psi when warm. > >>> What I hadn=E2=80=99t realised was that it sounds like normal behavio= ur is for > oil pressure to rise with RPM to a significantly higher value at say > 7000rpm. Higher in earlier and Series 2 Renesis with the Series 1 at a > lower peak pressure. > >>> Our engine doesn=E2=80=99t rise above that initial cold start pressur= e of > about 64 psi and then not above 50 psi even at 7000rpm. > >>> > >>> If this is correct then it must have oil bypassing back to the pan > somewhere. A rotary expert here says it sound like an engine with worn > bearings. But it=E2=80=99s always been like this when I purchased it as o= ne of the > Mazda test engines and looked like new, > >>> Points that it could bypass back to the pan include: > >>> 1. O-ring / gasket between front iron oil passage to front cover. > >>> 2. Front Iron relief valve. > >>> 3. Rear Iron relief valve. > >>> 4. Bearings worn. > >>> 5. E-Shalf thermal delete leak. (I replaced the thermal pellet with > Tracy=E2=80=99s Solid Aluminium units) > >>> > >>> I recall that on its first ever start we had a leak in the intake > manifold and it burst into life at hight rpm and blew the oil filter seal > out. > >>> This leaves me wondering about that front iron to front plate seal. I= s > this a gasket or o-ring in the Renesis Series 1? > >>> > >>> Is there any Renesis Series 1 engines out there and can I get your > numbers and experience? > >>> I=E2=80=99m wondering is 50 psi at 7200 dangerous for the bearings, r= otors? > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> > >>> Steve > >>> Perth Western Australia > >>> > >>> Glasair Super II RG Genesis 4 port RD1C EC/EM > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> . > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >>> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > >> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > -- > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > --000000000000f5117b0625eb9f6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Steve. I think we got same engine as you. Been aw= hile since I operated it so memory may be wrong. But pretty sure it sits on= 80psi.
I did the thermal pellet delete mod during the ori= ginal build. it was a part that Tracey supplied with all the other bits. Yo= u may be lucky enough to have enough room to do this mod while engine is mo= unted in the plane. Some people modified the eshaft jets to increase oil to= rotors, this I assume would lower oil pressure also. I did not do this.

For series 1 Renesis only.=
I would first check pressure at front cover oil por= t, relief in there is set to something like 125psi to protect the pump from= blocked cooler, if you plumbed a gauge and a needle valve in series(or, if= your game, clamp the hose) you could gradually restrict oil flow until rel= ief opens. This confirms that everything at front cover end is ok. A differ= ence in pressure at front cover & rear iron sensor indicates pressure d= rop through cooler, hoses & filter(if other than OEM). This does not ma= tter too much unless your seeing front cover relief pressure at lower than = your operating rpm.
Next place to look requires engi= ne teardown.
Andrew


On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, 16:15 Ste= phen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.c= om, <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:
Hi again= Finn

A qualification. Mazda used a lower oil pressure for the Renesis Series 1 t= han previous engine series, and then went back to higher pressure for the s= eries 2 Renesis.
My understanding is that the thermal pellet in the front end of the Eccentr= ic Shaft, when cold is open allowing the oil to dump into the pan rather th= an when warmed up it closes and the oil in the eccentric now squirts into t= he rotors cooling them.
I believe this is about emission control at startup and that for racing and= our use, better to delete this thermostat and block permanently this path = meaning oil is always cooling the rotors.
If the thermal pellet fails, it does so open and so stopping the rotor oil = cooling. Not a good thing and can cook the oil o-rings on the rotor sides.<= br>
Open to being corrected.

Steve




> On 1 Nov 2024, at 10:50=E2=80=AFpm, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@g= mail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks Finn.
>
> I should have mentioned the first thing I did was put a gauge to check= the EFIS reported oil pressure. They were both reading within 2psi so I ha= ve taken it to be accurate to within about 2 psi.
> Thanks for the data.
>
> Steve
>
>
>> On 1 Nov 2024, at 9:23=E2=80=AFpm, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@ve= rizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>>
>> Startup oil pressure depends a bit on OAT.
>> Recent example: OAT 82, oil pressure 80 @ 2,700 RPM dropping as lo= w as=C2=A0 50 @ 2,300 RPM after 80 seconds.
>> 67 @ 5,900 RPM during takeoff climb. (Over propped.)
>> Cruising along 68 psi @ 5,200 RPM, 62 OAT, 4,000'
>>
>> Sampling some logs I found 74 psi @ 6,500 RPM.
>>
>> I would say the relief valve is somewhere between 80 and 90 psi. N= ormally runs at 60 - 70 psi.
>>
>> Factory (unopened) Renesis 4 -port, I guess series 1. I don't = know what happens when you replace the pellet with something else.
>>
>> I too had heard that the Renesis ran at higher oil pressures and f= oolishly ordered and installed a 150 psi oil pressure sensor.
>>
>> I guess 50 psi sounds a bit low at higher RPMs. Check the sensor f= or accuracy.
>>
>> Finn
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/1/2024 8:17 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Hi People.
>>>
>>> Could I pick your brains.
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99ve been flying a Series 1 Renesis 4 port in the Glas= air for some years now.
>>> I have always thought the oil pressure was a bit low but I=E2= =80=99ve now got some concerns and would appreciate any wisdom.
>>>
>>> I=E2=80=99ve read that the Series 1 Renesis has lower Oil pres= sure than the previous rotaries and then the Series 2 had the pressure incr= eased.
>>> Some have changed the rear iron relief valve for an older seri= es with a high bypass pressure and then shimmed the front cover relief valv= e to enable a higher pressure.
>>>
>>> Ours has always had a cold start pressure (measured at the bac= k iron oil input) of around 64 psi that drops to around 50 psi when warm. >>> What I hadn=E2=80=99t realised was that it sounds like normal = behaviour is for oil pressure to rise with RPM to a significantly higher va= lue at say 7000rpm. Higher in earlier and Series 2 Renesis with the Series = 1 at a lower peak pressure.
>>> Our engine doesn=E2=80=99t rise above that initial cold start = pressure of about 64 psi and then not above 50 psi even at 7000rpm.
>>>
>>> If this is correct then it must have oil bypassing back to the= pan somewhere. A rotary expert here says it sound like an engine with worn= bearings. But it=E2=80=99s always been like this when I purchased it as on= e of the Mazda test engines and looked like new,
>>> Points that it could bypass back to the pan include:
>>> 1. O-ring / gasket between front iron oil passage to front cov= er.
>>> 2. Front Iron relief valve.
>>> 3. Rear Iron relief valve.
>>> 4. Bearings worn.
>>> 5. E-Shalf thermal delete leak. (I replaced the thermal pellet= with Tracy=E2=80=99s Solid Aluminium units)
>>>
>>> I recall that on its first ever start we had a leak in the int= ake manifold and it burst into life at hight rpm and blew the oil filter se= al out.
>>> This leaves me wondering about that front iron to front plate = seal. Is this a gasket or o-ring in the Renesis Series 1?
>>>
>>> Is there any Renesis Series 1 engines out there and can I get = your numbers and experience?
>>> I=E2=80=99m wondering is 50 psi at 7200 dangerous for the bear= ings, rotors?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> Perth Western Australia
>>>
>>> Glasair Super II RG Genesis 4 port RD1C EC/EM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
>> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
>
>
>
> --
> Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 =C2=A0http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



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