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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID de93cfc699597937d9f9e4bdf2f5526c; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 00:15:27 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------Oik4L2lilPbGa5o1OZj3Ltkb" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2024 19:15:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Milling exhaust manifold flat? Content-Language: en-US To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22046 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Content-Length: 16907 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------Oik4L2lilPbGa5o1OZj3Ltkb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Ed, So should probably keep the alum flange(s) and alum tube runners. Actually the primary runners are 0.016 alum plate rolled to fit the oval ports and 30 mm round velocity stacks inside the plenum, wrapped with glass and epoxy resin to prevent them from collapsing. I was thinking about replacing my 1/4" plywood plenum box with a more rounded shape in polyurethane resin. The box distance from engine ports are limited where it hits the cowling with the upper rear box corner. Being able to mold the plenum with round corners I should potentially be able to lengthen the runners about an inch. Would be a lot of work and then there's the plenum strength issue. The  urge  for more horsepower is there but in truth I rarely, if ever, run anywhere near full power, except at takeoff. Too cheap to see the fuel flow above 7-8 GPH for any extended period of time. Yeah,  I miss the good ole days! Finn On 1/27/2024 5:38 PM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: > Hi Finn, > > I doubt that you could make the entire intake using polyurethane resin > and still keep weight lower than your 5.87 lbs.  I think the thin > aluminum tubes will weigh less than resin tubes. However when it came > to making the two channle throttle body mount to convey the intake air > into the four aluminum tubes going to the manifold, I think resin is > the way to go. > > I flew mine from before the time of the article (2007) until I sold it > a few years ago and never had any problem with the resin throttle body > mount.  Did have to reweld one side of an aluminum tube where its > welded to the manifold.  But, that was the only "problem" I ever > incountered.  I think the design was responsibe for my old 13B hitting > up to 6200 rpm on a cold morning take off swinging that 72x80 prop on > Tracy's 2.85 gear box. Really make for great take off. > > Ed (Rotary Ed from the good ole days 😁) > > > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net" > To "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date 1/27/2024 10:32:08 AM > Subject [FlyRotary] Re: Milling exhaust manifold flat? > >> Thanks Stephen. >> >> Did you use a carbide end mill to  mill the flanges? >> >> Looking forward to the photos. >> >> In order to  keep it light I may just keep my existing intake. It's >> 5.87 pounds including throttle body, plenum, flanges and primary >> injectors. >> >> >> >> Been wondering if I could remake it all in polyurethane resin and >> still keep weight low.. (Ed Anderson's article in Contact! magazine >> https://issuu.com/contact.magazine/docs/contact_magazine_issue_87_rotary_is >> ). >> >> Finn >> >> On 1/27/2024 1:42 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote: >>> Hi Finn >>> >>> We modified the OEM headers by welding a new flange to the sawn off version with a sweeping bend back to the exit through a resonator (see photo). >>> We discovered that the flanges warped and the gasket leaked. We had the flanges milled but the same thing has happened. >>> As we have a slip joint down stream from that flange I’m about to remove most of the flanges OD back to round and weld the flanges together. >>> This will reduce weight and allow me to wrap the wend back to the headers more effectively. >>> >>> As far as intake manifold, you could purchase the aluminium section of an old 4 port OEM intake and cut it back and weld on some new runners. >>> I used the existing OEM secondaries while welding new primary's to the siamese flange/plate. >>> In the photo you can see where I cut the secondaries and turned the upstream section through 180 deg and rewelded the secondaries. >>> This made the manifold point down rather than up. You can see the new primaries that meet the secondaries at the VDI valve manifold (I cut off the SSV Secondary Shutter Valve). >>> I had to lengthen a grinding stone shaft but managed to smooth the weld (that penetrated the secondary runners) nicely in the end. >>> I’ve been meaning to put a cable on the VDI valve and see if opening the valve gives me more power above 6500RPM. >>> My primaries and secondaries ended up different lengths so the VDI might not work very well. >>> >>> If I had my time over I think I would weld new straight runners onto a cutoff OEM flange with an intake plenem and TB. A bit short but simple. >>> >>> Hoping your mods work well Finn. >>> >>> I’m retesting my new cooling system tomorrow hopefully. >>> Last test revealed best H2O coolant cooling but Oil was way hotter. >>> I realised that I hadn’t refitted some fairings at the cowl exits that I’m hoping messed up the exit air flow and so are retesting tomorrow. Hoping for a better result. >>> >>> Photos following >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Steve >>>> On 27 Jan 2024, at 4:08 am, Finn Lassenfinn.lassen@verizon.net wrote: >>>> >>>> When I welded on my stock Renesis exhaust manifold the end I welded the 270 deg bend on got warped. >>>> >>>> It's about 0.04" bent away from completely flat at the top flange at flywheel end. >>>> >>>> Doesn't seem to have been an issue during the 100+ hours the engine has run. >>>> >>>> But for peace of mind I'm wondering if I should mill the three flanges flat. >>>> >>>> Is it true that I'll need a carbide end mill to do this? Even a 1/2" carbide end mill is close to $30. >>>> >>>> Finn >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Homepage: >>>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >>> -- >>> Homepage: >>> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >>> Archive and UnSub:http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> --------------Oik4L2lilPbGa5o1OZj3Ltkb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi Ed,

So should probably keep the alum flange(s) and alum tube runners. Actually the primary runners are 0.016 alum plate rolled to fit the oval ports and 30 mm round velocity stacks inside the plenum, wrapped with glass and epoxy resin to prevent them from collapsing.

I was thinking about replacing my 1/4" plywood plenum box with a more rounded shape in polyurethane resin. The box distance from engine ports are limited where it hits the cowling with the upper rear box corner. Being able to mold the plenum with round corners I should potentially be able to lengthen the runners about an inch. Would be a lot of work and then there's the plenum strength issue.

The  urge  for more horsepower is there but in truth I rarely, if ever, run anywhere near full power, except at takeoff. Too cheap to see the fuel flow above 7-8 GPH for any extended period of time.

Yeah,  I miss the good ole days!

Finn

On 1/27/2024 5:38 PM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:
Hi Finn,

I doubt that you could make the entire intake using polyurethane resin and still keep weight lower than your 5.87 lbs.  I think the thin aluminum tubes will weigh less than resin tubes.  However when it came to making the two channle throttle body mount to convey the intake air into the four aluminum tubes going to the manifold, I think resin is the way to go.

I flew mine from before the time of the article (2007) until I sold it a few years ago and never had any problem with the resin throttle body mount.  Did have to reweld one side of an aluminum tube where its welded to the manifold.  But, that was the only "problem" I ever incountered.  I think the design was responsibe for my old 13B hitting up to 6200 rpm on a cold morning take off swinging that 72x80 prop on Tracy's 2.85 gear box. Really make for great take off.

Ed (Rotary Ed from the good ole days 😁)




------ Original Message ------
To "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date 1/27/2024 10:32:08 AM
Subject [FlyRotary] Re: Milling exhaust manifold flat?

Thanks Stephen.

Did you use a carbide end mill to  mill the flanges?

Looking forward to the photos.

In order to  keep it light I may just keep my existing intake. It's 5.87 pounds including throttle body, plenum, flanges and primary injectors.



Been wondering if I could remake it all in polyurethane resin and still keep weight low.. (Ed Anderson's article in Contact! magazine 
https://issuu.com/contact.magazine/docs/contact_magazine_issue_87_rotary_is
).

Finn

On 1/27/2024 1:42 AM, Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Finn

We modified the OEM headers by welding a new flange to the sawn off version with a sweeping bend back to the exit through a resonator (see photo). 
We discovered that the flanges warped and the gasket leaked. We had the flanges milled but the same thing has happened.
As we have a slip joint down stream from that flange I’m about to remove most of the flanges OD back to round and weld the flanges together.
This will reduce weight and allow me to wrap the wend back to the headers more effectively.

As far as intake manifold, you could purchase the aluminium section of an old 4 port OEM intake and cut it back and weld on some new runners. 
I used the existing OEM secondaries while welding new primary's to the siamese flange/plate. 
In the photo you can see where I cut the secondaries and turned the upstream section through 180 deg and rewelded the secondaries.
This made the manifold point down rather than up. You can see the new primaries that meet the secondaries at the VDI valve manifold (I cut off the SSV Secondary Shutter Valve).
I had to lengthen a grinding stone shaft but managed to smooth the weld (that penetrated the secondary runners) nicely in the end.
I’ve been meaning to put a cable on the VDI valve and see if opening the valve gives me more power above 6500RPM. 
My primaries and secondaries ended up different lengths so the VDI might not work very well.

If I had my time over I think I would weld new straight runners onto a cutoff OEM flange with an intake plenem and TB. A bit short but simple.

Hoping your mods work well Finn.

I’m retesting my new cooling system tomorrow hopefully.
Last test revealed best H2O coolant cooling but Oil was way hotter. 
I realised that I hadn’t refitted some fairings at the cowl exits that I’m hoping messed up the exit air flow and so are retesting tomorrow. Hoping for a better result.

Photos following

Cheers

Steve

On 27 Jan 2024, at 4:08 am, Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

When I welded on my stock Renesis exhaust manifold the end I welded the 270 deg bend on got warped.

It's about 0.04" bent away from completely flat at the top flange at flywheel  end.

Doesn't seem to have been an issue during the 100+ hours the engine has run.

But for peace of mind I'm wondering if I should mill the three flanges flat.

Is it true that I'll need a carbide end mill to do this? Even a 1/2" carbide end mill is close to $30.

Finn


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