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[220.235.69.94]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r26-20020aa7989a000000b0053653c6b9f9sm6899296pfl.204.2022.08.30.05.43.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 30 Aug 2022 05:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6DA2FA27-51AD-47C1-95BF-0BEACE889D24" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Resurrecting my project Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 20:43:13 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <93874177-F44A-4FD8-8C14-19E6C9B69281@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) --Apple-Mail=_6DA2FA27-51AD-47C1-95BF-0BEACE889D24 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Mark The Glasair flys beautifully. If your EC3 software can change the Staging Manifold Pressure via Mode = #7 which it likely can, then using the stock Red and Blue injectors is = fine. When the EC2/3 Stages it has to adjust the flow rate whether the = injectors are the same flow rate or not. Its just Math which it does = really well. Steve > On 30 Aug 2022, at 7:55 pm, Mark McClure mark.mcclure.m3@gmail.com = wrote: >=20 > @Charlie: I think all 4 injectors being the same makes sense. > @Steve: Your Glasair looks great! How does she fly? >=20 > "Simplicity is the answer - don=E2=80=99t want to reinvent the = wheel=E2=80=9D > With that in mind - I may program up my EC3 and EM3 as I own them = already and MegaSquirt is expensive and Speeduino seemingly is out of = stock and has been for a while. >=20 > I have heard from Ross as well that SDS will not support Rotary, but I = am not entirely sure I understand why as it is intended to be fully user = programmable why would I not be able to program it to work on a rotary = just like I would be able to program the MS Pro or Speeduino? Benefit = being SDS is supported and designed for aviation. >=20 >=20 > What am I missing? =20 >=20 > To understand how a rotary engine works with MegaSquirt=C2=AE EFI = Controller, we need to figure out how MegaSquirt=C2=AE will 'see' the = rotary in terms of injection cycles. >=20 > In 720=C2=B0 of crank rotation, a four-stroke cycle piston engine (two = revolutions =3D 4 strokes) ingests its rated displacement (ignoring = volumetric efficiency issues and the like) of air. In the same 720=C2=B0, = the rotary swallows twice its rated displacement (somewhat like a 2 = stroke cycle engine). >=20 > To understand this, recall that a Wankel rotary engine has three faces = on each rotor, evenly spaced at 120=C2=B0 apart. The rotors rotate at = 1/3 the eccentric shaft speed, so we see an ignition event every = 120=C2=B0=C3=83=E2=80=943 =3D 360 degrees, and all three faces require = 3=C3=83=E2=80=94360=C2=B0 =3D 1080=C2=B0 of eccentric shaft rotation. >=20 > (Note that all of these factors are determined by the geometry of the = case, housing, and gears, and are the same for all Wankel rotary = engines.) >=20 > In the 13B, there are two rotors, however, and they are phased 180=C3=82= =C2=B0 apart, giving an ignition event every 180=C3=82=C2=B0, = alternating between the rotors. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Crank Degrees Piston Engine > Cylinder Firing Wankel > Rotor Firing > 0=C2=B0 1 1 (face 1) > 180=C2=B0 3 2 (face 1) > 360=C2=B0 4 1 (face 2) > 540=C2=B0 2 2 (face 2) > 720=C2=B0 1 - back where we started 1 (face 3) > 900=C2=B0 3 2 (face 3) > 1080=C2=B0 4 1 (face 1) - back where we started >=20 > So to MegaSquirt=C2=AE EFI Controller, the Mazda 13B rotary looks just = like a 4 cylinder engine, except for having a 2nd set of plugs delayed = by a few degrees. Each rotor has 3 chambers and executes an Otto cycle = (intake-compression-power-exhaust) in 1080=C2=B0 of eccentric shaft = rotation. > Therefore, setting up a rotary as a 4 stroke cycle, 4-cylinder (since = it gives 4 tach pulses per 720=C2=B0), and 2600cc (displacement x 2), = works out fine. The number of squirts per cycle may need some = experimentation for your specific installation, as with any MegaSquirt=C2=AE= installation. >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 2:19 PM Le Roux Breytenbach = breytenbachleroux@gmail.com = > = wrote: > Mark: I am going for the Mercury 2 by Spittronics in South Africa.They = support the software for the rotary wankel engine. >=20 > https://spitronics.com/ >=20 > Think that they have sorted out the problems over the years. > Simplicity is the answer - don=E2=80=99t want to =E2=80=9Creinvent the = wheel=E2=80=9D lot of guys in racing uses the software in the wankel = engins. >=20 > Regards > Sent from my iPhone > Le Roux Breytenbach=20 >=20 >> On 29 Aug 2022, at 18:31, bruce buksyk bbuksyk@outlook.com = > wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> Great questions=E2=80=A6 I too would like to start back up. In the = previous thread, there was mention of SDS EFI. I=E2=80=99ve been in = touch with Ross at SDS and they no longer produce systems for Wankels = due to low numbers. FYI.. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Sent from Mail for = Windows >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: Mark McClure mark.mcclure.m3@gmail.com = >> Sent: Monday, August 29, 2022 10:45 AM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Resurrecting my project >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> So after a few years hiatus of working on the project, I am back at = it. >>=20 >> Glasair Super 2 with 4 port RENESIS. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Feels good, except I cannot remember all of my plans, nor some of the = decisions I made. 2 sets of bell mouths for the intake, obviously one = was first=E2=80=A6 and one was =E2=80=9Cdecided on=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I purchased my EC-3 back in 2012. I believe at the time I asked Tracy = for RENESIS engine with stock injectors and LS1 coils. Searching through = the archives, it seems Finn Lassen found that the EC3 is not programmed = correctly to represent that? Or maybe I misread it. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> All my electronic pieces are still unopened and no work has really = been started on installing any of it. I am working on getting all the = ancillary systems such as intake, exhaust, oil and cooling setup.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> So a few questions for the group: >>=20 >> 1) ditch the EC3 and EM3 altogether (and provide it to someone else = as a backup) Start acquiring/learning SpeedUino or some other system? >>=20 >> 2) continue with what I have (is there some way to validate or change = the programming of the EC3?) >>=20 >> 3) unrelated: Anyone made the swap to yellow and blue injectors for = RENESIS and are happy with their decision? Or stick with red and blue? >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Appreciate any insights from others' experiences as I get back at = this.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Warm regards, >>=20 >> Mark McClure >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 60% Glasair Super 2TD >>=20 >> 35% 13b >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_6DA2FA27-51AD-47C1-95BF-0BEACE889D24 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Mark

The Glasair = flys beautifully.
If your EC3 software can change = the Staging Manifold Pressure via Mode #7 which it likely can, then = using the stock Red and Blue injectors is fine.
When = the EC2/3 Stages it has to adjust the flow rate whether the injectors = are the same flow rate or not. Its just Math which it does really = well.

Steve


On 30 = Aug 2022, at 7:55 pm, Mark McClure mark.mcclure.m3@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

@Charlie: I think all 4 injectors being the = same makes sense.
@Steve: Your Glasair looks great! How = does she fly?

"Simplicity is the answer - don=E2=80=99t want to = reinvent the wheel=E2=80=9D
With that in mind - I may = program up my EC3 and EM3 as I own them already and MegaSquirt is = expensive and Speeduino seemingly is out of stock and has been for a = while.

I have = heard from Ross as well that SDS will not support Rotary, but I am not = entirely sure I understand why as it is intended to be fully user = programmable why would I not be able to program it to work on a rotary = just like I would be able to program the MS Pro or Speeduino?  = Benefit being SDS is supported and designed for aviation.


What am I missing?  

To understand how a rotary engine = works with MegaSquirt=C2=AE EFI Controller, = we need to figure out how MegaSquirt=C2=AE will= 'see' the rotary in terms of injection cycles.

In = 720=C2=B0 of crank rotation, a four-stroke cycle piston engine (two = revolutions =3D 4 strokes) ingests its rated displacement (ignoring = volumetric efficiency issues and the like) of air. In the same 720=C2=B0, = the rotary swallows twice its rated = displacement (somewhat like a 2 stroke cycle engine).

To = understand this, recall that a Wankel rotary engine has three faces on = each rotor, evenly spaced at 120=C2=B0 apart. The rotors rotate = at 1/3 the = eccentric shaft speed, so we see an ignition event every 120=C2=B0=C3=83=E2= =80=943 =3D 360 degrees, and all three faces require 3=C3=83=E2=80=94360=C2= =B0 =3D 1080=C2=B0 of eccentric shaft rotation.

(Note that all of these factors are determined by the geometry = of the case, housing, and gears, and are the same for all Wankel rotary = engines.)

In the 13B, there are two rotors, however, and they = are phased 180=C3=82=C2=B0 apart, giving an ignition event every = 180=C3=82=C2=B0, alternating between the rotors.



Crank DegreesPiston Engine
Cylinder Firing		Wankel
Rotor = Firing
0=C2=B011 (face 1)
180=C2=B032 (face 1)
360=C2=B041 (face 2)
540=C2=B022 (face 2)
720=C2=B01 - back where we = started1 (face 3)
900=C2=B032 (face 3)
1080=C2=B041 (face 1) - back where we = started

So to = MegaSquirt=C2=AE EFI Controller, the Mazda 13B rotary = looks just like a 4 cylinder engine, except for having a 2nd set of = plugs delayed by a few degrees. Each rotor has 3 chambers and executes = an Otto cycle (intake-compression-power-exhaust) in 1080=C2=B0 of = eccentric shaft rotation.

Therefore, = setting up a rotary as a 4 stroke cycle, 4-cylinder (since it gives 4 = tach pulses per 720=C2=B0), and 2600cc (displacement x 2), works out = fine. The number of squirts per cycle may need some experimentation for = your specific installation, as with any MegaSquirt=C2=AE installation.


On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 2:19 PM Le Roux Breytenbach = breytenbachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Mark: I = am going for the Mercury 2 by Spittronics in South Africa.They support = the software for the rotary wankel engine.

https://spitronics.com/

Think that they have sorted out the problems = over the years.
Simplicity is the answer - don=E2=80=99= t want to =E2=80=9Creinvent the wheel=E2=80=9D lot of guys in racing = uses the software in the wankel engins.

Regards
Sent from my iPhone
Le Roux = Breytenbach 

On 29 Aug 2022, at = 18:31, bruce buksyk bbuksyk@outlook.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

Great questions=E2=80=A6  I = too would like to start back up.   In the previous thread, = there was mention of SDS EFI. I=E2=80=99ve been in touch with Ross at = SDS and they no longer produce systems for Wankels due to low numbers. =   FYI..

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: = Mark McClure mark.mcclure.m3@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2022 10:45 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Resurrecting my project

 

So = after a few years hiatus of working on the project, I am back at = it.

Glasair = Super 2 with 4 port RENESIS.

 

Feels = good, except I cannot remember all of my plans, nor some of the = decisions I made. 2 sets of bell mouths for the intake, obviously one = was first=E2=80=A6 and one was =E2=80=9Cdecided on=E2=80=9D

 

I = purchased my EC-3 back in 2012. I believe at the time I asked Tracy for = RENESIS engine with stock injectors and LS1 coils. Searching through the = archives, it seems Finn Lassen found that the EC3 is not programmed correctly to represent that? Or = maybe I misread it.

 

All my = electronic pieces are still unopened and no work has really been started = on installing any of it. I am working on getting all the ancillary = systems such as intake, exhaust, oil and cooling setup. 

 

So a = few questions for the group:

1) = ditch the EC3 and EM3 altogether (and provide it to someone else as a = backup) Start acquiring/learning SpeedUino or some other = system?

2) = continue with what I have (is there some way to validate or change the = programming of the EC3?)

3) = unrelated: Anyone made the swap to yellow and blue injectors for RENESIS = and are happy with their decision? Or stick with red and = blue?

 

Appreciate any insights from others' experiences as I get = back at this. 

 

Warm = regards,

Mark = McClure

 

60% Glasair Super 2TD

35% = 13b

 


= --Apple-Mail=_6DA2FA27-51AD-47C1-95BF-0BEACE889D24--