X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: " eanderson@carolina.rr.com" Received: from [47.43.26.140] (HELO p-impout009.msg.pkvw.co.charter.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.3.5) with ESMTPS id 711243 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 11:20:08 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=47.43.26.140; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from [192.168.1.7] ([66.26.212.217]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id OMH0n9CPiIjNROMH0nar4n; Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:19:50 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=LeovVxTi c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=621ba4a6 a=WcvdwKkRgKsaRaJ9Bx4DbQ==:117 a=WcvdwKkRgKsaRaJ9Bx4DbQ==:17 a=cV5C3Lt1AAAA:8 a=o1OHuDzbAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=JjuIwX2VfjA8yDF0Q6IA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=oS103TXm5HgA:10 a=z8KkIgzno5EA:10 a=GQJhX4Q_zmMA:10 a=cCP_zo7Y2LoA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=yMPwXA1opfcRkndCP90A:9 a=BjloRoAlUqd9CXJC:21 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Z1XfQpS0f8_lh700RVan:22 a=5YQ6H4ZxyGn-KoBYtt8s:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=B_RyunTPg8udlmYm5Cu2:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 16:19:51 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Reply-To: eanderson@carolina.rr.com User-Agent: eM_Client/8.2.1509.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MBBD7E2BFF-3364-4BEF-B1CB-CF5996221EC5" X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfHZPz8LdCtV7nwFbhytwm82kWi3sko6ush8pSE2ElowBy4wFt4+AzCzDnjywPyCPNQsE8WRt9gHQG8eG4Qx4FZaPnhTA6sTo5mGvP9CW6wbu9r0Uq0FS mOI9AwrmvWu595Tte+LjKg+ooVTMDOG4aeps0orEUO5cQhNcG1FUzw3nL745FoGCLPKfOdZXIottUWWdieip5eysJarnm1gTCAk= --------=_MBBD7E2BFF-3364-4BEF-B1CB-CF5996221EC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well Looking at the chart you referernced it looks like the mixture for=20 50/50 the CP could range from 0.79 at -30F to 0.88 at 100F. IF 100 %=20 glyco then at -10F we have a CP of 0.53 and at 100 0f 0.66. So looks=20 like I picked a worst/best case condition. But, using your example I=20 get a cp of 0.8807. Not a 30% difference but more than 5% In any case, I would suggest if you find data you feel more confident=20 in, do not hesitate to subsitute it. Ed pecific Heat of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions Specific Heat=20 - cp - of=20 ethylene glycol=20 based=20 water solutions at various temperatures are indicated below Specific Heat - cp (Btu/lb oF) Ethylene Glycol Solution (% by weight)Temperature (=C2=B0C) -50-40-30-20-100102030405060708090100 0 1.0038 1.0018 1.0004 0.99943 0.99902 0.99913 0.99978 1.0009 1.0026=20 1.0049 1.0076 10 0.97236 0.97422 0.97619 0.97827 0.98047 0.98279 0.98521 0.98776=20 0.99041 0.99318 0.99607 20 0.93576 0.93976 0.94375 0.94775 0.95175 0.95574 0.95974 0.96373=20 0.96773 0.97173 0.97572 30 0.89373 0.89889 0.90405 0.90920 0.91436 0.91951 0.92467 0.92982=20 0.93498 0.94013 0.94529 0.95044 40 0.84605 0.85232 0.85858 0.86484 0.87111 0.87737 0.88364 0.88990=20 0.89616 0.90243 0.90869 0.91496 0.92122 50 0.79288 0.80021 0.80753 0.81485 0.82217 0.82949 0.83682 0.84414=20 0.85146 0.85878 0.86610 0.87343 0.88075 0.88807 60 0.72603 0.73436 0.74269 0.75102 0.75935 0.76768 0.77601 0.78434=20 0.79267 0.80100 0.80933 0.81766 0.82599 0.83431 0.84264 0.85097 70 0.67064 0.67992 0.68921 0.69850 0.70778 0.71707 0.72636 0.73564=20 0.74493 0.75422 0.76350 0.77279 0.78207 0.79136 0.80065 0.80993 80 0.61208 0.62227 0.63246 0.64265 0.65285 0.66304 0.67323 0.68343=20 0.69362 0.70381 0.71401 0.72420 0.73439 0.74458 0.75478 0.76497 90 0.58347 0.59452 0.60557 0.61662 0.62767 0.63872 0.64977 0.66082=20 0.67186 0.68291 0.69396 0.70501 0.71606 100 0.53282 0.54467 0.55652 0.56838 0.58023 0.59209 0.60394 0.61579=20 0.62765 0.63950 0.65136 0.66321 I'm not sure how ------ Original Message ------ From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net"=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: 2/26/2022 9:29:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet >From your 24 Aug 2012 post about cooling section in the spreadsheet: >"Cooling mass flow is dependent on: >1. A 0.7 cp compared to pure water of 1.0 Cp - this compensates for=20 >the typical anitfreeze dilution of the specific heat of water. " > >Roughly weighing a 1 Gal 50/50 antifreeze jug I get maybe 7.9 pounds=20 >after subtracting 0.3 pound for the jug). Pure water about 8.3 pounds.=20 >That's about 5%. >I realize it changes somewhat with temperature but nowhere near 30% ? > >https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ethylene-glycol-d_146.html > >Difference between water and 50/50 at 100C: 1000/1030 or 3%. Not 30%. > >Difference in specific heat (whatever that is): 1.0079 / 0.88807 =3D 13%= =20 >(for 50/50 at 100C). > >What am I missing? > >Finn > >On 2/26/2022 10:48 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >> >>I agree, must have got it from someplace credible - like Bill Shertz. >>CP was 1.0 for pure H20 and somewhat less with antifreeze mixed in. >>I had a primary pully from MazdaTrix that reduced water pump speed -=20 >>since engine was turning faster than normal in automobile, did not=20 >>want to have any cavitation. So my water pump did turn a bit slower=20 >>than stock. >>Not necessarily - note that water flow drops off if pump speed=20 >>increases into the "caviation range" >> >> >>------ Original Message ------ >>From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net"=20 >> >>To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>Sent: 2/25/2022 10:39:43 AM >>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet >> >>>Thanks Ed. >>> >>>But 185.85 seems pretty detailed for a SWAG. >>>Any chance you got it from Bill Shertz's tests (which I unfortunately=20 >>>can't find the posts about)? >>> >>>What determines "Cp Coolant"? >>>Heat transfer efficiency from engine to water and water to rad? >>> >>>From measuring the rims of the e-shaft pulley (122mm) and water pump=20 >>>pulley (112mm) it looks like the Renesis water pump runs a bit slower=20 >>>(factor 1.09 compared to your 1.18). >>> >>>Should water flow be directly proportional to water pump RPM? >>> >>>Finn >>> >>>On 2/25/2022 10:07 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote: >>>>Sorry, Finn. >>>> >>>>Too much water under the bridge, pretty sure I did not make it up=20 >>>>out of thin air. I suspect I visited some pump websites to arrive=20 >>>>at a SWAG. >>>> >>>>Ed >>>> >>>>------ Original Message ------ >>>>From: "Finn Lassen finn.lassen@verizon.net"=20 >>>> >>>>To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >>>>Sent: 2/24/2022 2:25:56 PM >>>>Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's spreadsheet >>>> >>>>>Hi Ed, >>>>> >>>>>From where did you get the 13B >>>>> coolant flow numbers (Pump Factor)? >>>>> >>>>>I want to be certain that I have >>>>> adequate coolant flow. >>>>> >>>>>Finn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>--- >>> >>> >>><#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > --------=_MBBD7E2BFF-3364-4BEF-B1CB-CF5996221EC5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20

Well Looking at the chart you referernced it = looks like the mixture for 50/50 the CP could range from 0.79 at -30F to 0= .88 at 100F.=C2=A0 IF 100 % glyco then at -10F we have a CP of 0.53 and at= 100 0f 0.66.=C2=A0 So looks like I picked a worst/best case condition.=C2= =A0 But, using your example I get a cp of 0.8807.=C2=A0 Not a 30% differenc= e but more than 5%


In any case, I would suggest if you find= data you feel=C2=A0 more confident in, do not hesitate to subsitute it.

Ed

pe= cific Heat of Ethylene Glycol based Water Solutions

Spe= cific Heat=C2=A0-=C2=A0cp=C2=A0- of=C2=A0ethyle= ne glycol=C2=A0based water solutions at various temperatures are indica= ted below

<= tr>0.950440.889900.763500.60557= =
Specific Heat -=C2=A0c<= sub>p=C2=A0(Btu/lb=C2=A0oF)=C2=A0
Ethyle= ne Glycol Solution
(% by weight)		Temperature=C2=A0(=C2=B0C)=C2=A0
-50-40-30-20-100102030405060708090100
01.00381.00181.00040.999430.99= 9020.999130.999781.00091.00261= .00491.0076
10= 0.9= 72360.974220.976190.978270.980470.98279<= /td>0.985210.987760.990410.993180.9= 9607
200.935760.939760.943750.947750.951750.955740.959740.963730.967730.971730.97572
300.89373= 0.898890.904050.909200.914360.919510.924670.929820.9= 34980.940130.94529
40<= /td>0.846050.852320.858580.864840= .871110.877370.883640.896160.902430.908690.914960.92122
500.792= 880.80021= 0.807530.814850.822170.829490.836820.844140.851460.858780.866100.87343= 0.880750.88807
600.726030.734360.742690.75102= 0.759350.767680.776010.= 784340.792670.801000.809330.817660.825990.834310.842640.85097
700.67064<= /td>0.679920.689210.698500.707780.717070.726360= .735640.744930.754220.772790.782070.791360.800650.80993
800.61208= 0.622270.632460.642650.652850.663040.673230.693620.703810.714010.724200.734390.744580.7547= 80.76497
900.583470.594520.616620.627670.638720.649770.660820.671860.682910.693960.705010.71606
1000.532820.544670.556520.568380.580230.592090.603940.615790.627650.63950= 0.651360.66321
    I'm not sure how
    ------ Original Message ------
    To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
    Sent: 2/26/2022 9:29:22 PM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet

    From your 24 Aug 2012 post about cooling section in the spreadsheet:
    "Cooling mass flow=C2=A0is dependent on:
    1.=C2=A0A=C2=A0 0.7 cp compared to pure wat= er of 1.0 Cp - this compensates for the typical anitfreeze dilution of the specific heat of water. "

    Roughly weighing a 1 Gal 50/50 antifreeze jug I get maybe 7.9 pounds after subtracting 0.3 pound for the jug). Pure water about 8.3 pounds. That's about 5%.
    I realize it changes somewhat with temperature but nowhere near 30% ?

    https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com= /ethylene-glycol-d_146.html

    Difference between water and 50/50 at 100C: 1000/1030 or 3%. Not 30%.

    Difference in specific heat (whatever that is): 1.0079 / 0.88807 =3D 13% (for 50/50 at 100C).

    What am I missing?

    Finn

    On 2/26/2022 10:48 AM, eanderson@carolina.rr.com wrote:
    =20 =20

    I agree, must have got it from someplace credible - like Bill Shertz.
    CP was 1.0 for pure H20 and somewhat less with antifreeze mixed in.
    I had a primary pully from MazdaTrix that reduced water pump speed - since engine was turning faster than normal in automobile, did not want to have any cavitation.=C2=A0 So my water pump did turn a bit slower than stock.
    Not necessarily - note that water flow drops off if pump speed increases into the "caviation range"


    ------ Original Message ------
    To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
    Sent: 2/25/2022 10:39:43 AM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's spreadsheet

    Thanks Ed.

    But 185.85 seems pretty detailed for a SWAG.
    Any chance you got it from Bill Shertz's tests (which I unfortunately can't find the posts about)?

    What determines "Cp Coolant"?
    Heat transfer efficiency from engine to water and water to rad?

    From measuring the rims of the e-shaft pulley (122mm) and water pump pulley (112mm) it looks like the Renesis water pump runs a bit slower (factor 1.09 compared to your 1.18).
    Should water flow be directly proportional to water pump RPM?

    Finn

    On 2/25/2022 10:07 AM, eanderson@= carolina.rr.com wrote:
    Sorry, Finn.

    Too much water under the bridge, pretty sure I did not make it up out of thin air.=C2=A0 I suspect I=C2=A0 visited s= ome pump websites to arrive at a SWAG.

    Ed

    ------ Original Message ------
    To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
    Sent: 2/24/2022 2:25:56 PM
    Subject: [FlyRotary] Ed's spreadsheet

    Hi Ed,
    =C2=A0
    From where did you get the 13B coolant flow numbers (Pump Factor)?
    =C2=A0
    I want to be certain that I have adequate coolant flow.
    =C2=A0
    Finn
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    ---


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