X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-KAS-Score: 0 [] From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f178.google.com ([209.85.167.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 1479342 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 May 2021 14:05:29 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.178; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f178.google.com with SMTP id e25so9633381oii.2 for ; Tue, 04 May 2021 11:05:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=eyC8NrC6YdZMSVbyq+EeE2m3chZtm8nWcMXm7rl+R6U=; b=fWRQayo15+50V2AwMAhhzkI+5rgHWlxdi0FJwY+PxsXYA97cTeFilHxZ/+A9ZTqsXc ds9UviUcS8tpylTydFEkQVR82ZOB2YFLKH32m5KmXjvZA8umthIeIaM/lq4nw1n5/8nt lPg21y9G0sGJFvIct+ugJ3OIW9lj1M5ZjGJz5r5p6RtYYwseb5wlQo6UDZNXjT8JtKRU dlbDoR1SxSe5g23zVfX0uQTWI6kpDPbG30J8WW/DsDE3kL7oY75+DWeas3gtpi6GCZ6M HFahV/MwLXjXsZNyzrR5qtvb2YkaRW7PLktNevmZjLjJ4WM5WOxhxkyOUhInD82wlMg0 9jNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=eyC8NrC6YdZMSVbyq+EeE2m3chZtm8nWcMXm7rl+R6U=; b=B1zoPGZ1/4eBAK9LR05BJGzrPMkpp+1FdOLQIISB3vDtJxP/r+trA9lWAP6WcbmBCc qmpuVbvAyZ3YlnZhhlvU5N27LXyFAfrAbCq7Y75OVtMEP2At86FZfmFZ8c8o/JWjVVGL s71jDRORqP8Qg4Ghua75hYsjSXZ0d+B4NHto3nT9kOel7jhVwV90sitpZoXX32Rh1YUO S+5x6PBPU72C4wGVptV1eQpcWQmOdPi9e5uvvKyk7tQKc7axr94f4R4gTy7Ghp4CGyOi //vI2hytjXHQtEmGO50yIIvMkqBZn4cetr1+4sO00zpv6ZD6BCr2O5isa7YFteczqc0Y 81xA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532ovkFxUUFOvnAlh40PbrcoLmyd15/WbzjotpsPA2C9IhLKvUJ5 2clp0W2eUJYGmBY6qHeQ4vJul9gXcxM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzH7xMSXOeGzo02KIaOm4/jNN4qctwO5qRKRCW0/2tZbpmjamTOEdA7LKtx+doL2YfJdzj4Dg== X-Received: by 2002:aca:b6d7:: with SMTP id g206mr18627881oif.53.1620151512143; Tue, 04 May 2021 11:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:::1? ([2607:fb90:d07c:66f9:c08d:572d:41a7:c349]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id i9sm879047otr.19.2021.05.04.11.05.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 May 2021 11:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Renesis secondary injectors To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <0fb8a444-c073-8602-c4da-7c34e1fb3b7b@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 2021 13:08:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------93F44C28CDE0F0D08A482D34" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 210502-8, 05/02/2021), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------93F44C28CDE0F0D08A482D34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact staging point, or is it just rising in that area? How much increase on the gauge? Where is the reference for fuel pressure measurement? The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold pressure), and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold pressure rises. If the gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or absolute), it would indicate a rise in pressure as the throttle is opened. Charlie On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote: > Finn > No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the > EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't > opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would raise > the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is reducing the > primaries and starting the secondaries at the same time? > Bill > > On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net > > wrote: > > Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 > reading?  Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the > staging point with different size injectors. > > Bobby > > *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft > [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net > ] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors > > I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be about > 50% higher than actual. > > So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow. > > The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging > point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary > injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis). > > I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth > transition around the staging point, at least to the point when I > didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the staging > point. > > However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point > (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomenon > of it going very lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open. > Another odd thing is that fuel pressure/in/creases markedly. > > On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a > couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors. > > Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary > injectors -- not opening when they should. > > However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a > injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could push > back through the injector into the fuel line? > > Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total > engine run (or attempted run) time. > > Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there > were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop when > secondary injectors open... > > I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% ethanol > boiling point vs temperature. > > Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? > Symptoms? Other ideas? > > Finn > > RX-8 4-port: > Primary: Denso 195500-4430    33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/min)    > 13.8 ohm > Secondary: Denso 195500-4460    51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi > (540cc/min)    13.8 ohm > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Image removed by sender. Avast logo > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > > > > *Disclaimer* > > The information contained in this communication from the sender is > confidential. It is intended solely for use by the recipient and > others authorized to receive it. If you are not the recipient, you > are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > taking action in relation of the contents of this information is > strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. > > This email has been scanned for viruses and malware, and may have > been automatically archived by *Mimecast Ltd*, an innovator in > Software as a Service (SaaS) for business. Providing a *safer* and > *more useful* place for your human generated data. Specializing > in; Security, archiving and compliance. 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Does the pressure increase have a solid 'step' at the exact staging point, or is it just rising in that area? How much increase on the gauge? Where is the reference for fuel pressure measurement?

The pressure *regulator* should be referenced to MAP (manifold pressure), and will raise absolute fuel pressure as manifold pressure rises. If the gauge is referenced to atmosphere (or absolute), it would indicate a rise in pressure as the throttle is opened.

Charlie

On 5/4/2021 12:44 PM, William Schertz wschertz343@gmail.com wrote:
Finn
No rx-8 injector experience, but if at the staging point, if the EC-2-3 shuts off the primary injectors, and the secondaries haven't opened, fuel out of the manifold decreases, so the pumps would raise the pressure. Are you confident that the controller is reducing the primaries and starting the secondaries at the same time?
Bill

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 11:07 AM Bobby Hughes BHughes@qnsinc.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Is the fuel pressure really increasing or is it the EM2/3 reading?  Steve B. has posted good advice for tuning around the staging point with different size injectors.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2021 11:46 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Renesis secondary injectors

 

I noticed that my indicated fuel consumption appeared to be about 50% higher than actual.

So I decided to start calibrating engine monitor fuel flow.

The first step is to check/adjust fuel flow around the staging point (20"Hg) where the secondary injectors open (secondary injectors are larger than primary injectors on the 4-port Renesis).

I thought I had previously tuned the engine for a smooth transition around the staging point, at least to the point when I didn't notice anything when dvancing throttle through the staging point.

However, now doing stationary run ups around the staging point (especially when engine is getting hot) I get the weird phenomenon of it going very lean when secondary injectors (supposedly) open. Another odd thing is that fuel pressure increases markedly.

On the HomebuiltAirplanes.com forum a guy that raced RV-8s for a couple of seasons mentioned troubles with the stock Renesis injectors.

Now I'm wondering if I have (intermittently) bad secondary injectors -- not opening when they should.

However, I'm confused by the rise in fuel pressure. Is there a injector failure mode where pressure in intake runners could push back through the injector into the fuel line?

Note that these are factory-new, maybe 10 to 20 hours of total engine run (or attempted run) time.

Another possibility is heated secondary fuel rail. But if there were boiling fuel there the fuel pressure should still drop when secondary injectors open...

I tried to look but didn't find a chart of 87 octane 10% ethanol boiling point vs temperature.

Anybody here had any trouble with stock Renesis injectors? Symptoms? Other ideas?

Finn

RX-8 4-port:
Primary: Denso 195500-4430    33.3 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (350cc/min)    13.8 ohm
Secondary: Denso 195500-4460    51.4 lb/hr @ 43.5 psi (540cc/min)    13.8 ohm

 

 

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