X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pl1-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 1363674 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 23:46:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.175; envelope-from=stephen.izett@gmail.com Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id w11so319593ply.6 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:46:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=jGdhESZWxhPeRgo25PP08qgtkQbZZjiuHIA9wdX2xF8=; b=Od1MM3KsnoR1qCA1LxQRfS3K+JXuGxYAdsysEit5dObJRmIizGNU9U2HdYm3euxM82 +/nFYoCoiBGxbEBw5AbWI5BKpgoXllwmdDoLlzuwqNwkaIbQFDDFMh9IwgIINZ8/f8Xq N+G+9wQ0/6Ya1+zNqrwqecUjFo+MM/voAWKU+Ht1VGKywM1JObrVLNkTAPjLv1ibPofo 12EeiKPi1N3+syU483l0vf9K+AHo+FeKGU8elwuxbW/iChD+bm2VV37dc01I1VQmYqe6 61/N7ZG/VSj/MN4QhDDwy6uzLEPtap/ErsyjmlaXZpwX6M+igZ9U3pNOwKuzARbUZjKE KlkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=jGdhESZWxhPeRgo25PP08qgtkQbZZjiuHIA9wdX2xF8=; b=SHPLmDQpsPbf19teGUSkwEluc6ItDO0Exvec5dDzHpYAqqUsb4XBWv6xS7/eyJmmbU 9mBdlwcFoXAEa4NHprCGj1H0HBOPcHH5ozjpsuey3qhK/Hd4p0zOqvu4WosV3Xiyr/B/ o6VEF31xIU3lrBDXeRROC9GzZg5zRLl+bOEroyYnTJkOff+JiTcPqCXqYEPeMbhLWe2p oPeo9Za/n5/nic2IGiEq1zwS2dLKUQEgzJTNR6I9Jl7lOxpB6G9ZNbFHfWcVG2glfXZO Twn0EB6EKTXVNSxo26XCHDz8rRXDl6v9Got9yeMDwj4dy2NhYWKvUJY16FCwoVgps9ol A96Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5325hYpWLwXFVcOCBGrnphZtcvGEo6RkeVsl40r2v4p6/Z6VzZ9X gZInLhAqUwuYFLBGHpDKTAt2M5MtmGzNkw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxe8tZ7+y8LbsV7ke1ilMaYMY9S6gsZE2qMYsws8N3lGOMXSucK4VoYqMyWPcjYNZR1sh/lPA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e74f:b029:e5:fedb:92b9 with SMTP id p15-20020a170902e74fb02900e5fedb92b9mr5978167plf.67.1617248761962; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [10.1.1.170] (203-59-74-185.perm.iinet.net.au. [203.59.74.185]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j21sm3258704pfc.114.2021.03.31.20.46.00 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9A831273-C6EC-426B-B94D-CBB9525797DF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] MISTRAL Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:45:56 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) --Apple-Mail=_9A831273-C6EC-426B-B94D-CBB9525797DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Charlie. Yep. =46rom memory the first valve is the secondaries OPEN/CLOSED. Closely followed by the VDI which as you recall opens for higher rpm = dynamic torque boost. I think the distance from the engine face to the VDI is around 11 = inches.=20 So your critical measurement being ~ 11 + side port length. I take it Tracy ran out of room under that RV4 cowl utilising his = straight runners. Cheers Steve I > On 1 Apr 2021, at 11:25 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com = wrote: >=20 > Don't forget that the car needs a flat torque curve from as low an rpm = as possible to max rpm. We don't really care about low rpm torque = because the prop doesn't load the engine at low rpm. I'd consider the = critical measurement to be from the secondary port to the first valve = point; IIRC, it opens (on the Renesis) at just under 6k rpm.=20 >=20 > I think Tracy's cigar box manifold has ~10-11 inch straight runners.=20= >=20 > Charlie > Sent from BlueMail > On Mar 31, 2021, at 10:08 PM, "Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com" = > = wrote: > =46rom my notes: the Renesis 4 Port manifold was pretty close to 24 = inches between the engine face and throttle body. >=20 > Steve I >=20 >> On 1 Apr 2021, at 9:44 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: >>=20 >> Stephen, >> Sorry for the delay in getting back with you about the "Mistral" = intake runner lengths , etc............Be aware these numbers are = approximate but in the ballpark............The runner lengths are approx = centerline >> from the face of the 13B engine block to the throttle = body..........Both the primary and secondary runners merge into a "V" = shaped cast aluminum plenum which includes the throttle body.........The = runner lengths=20 >> are to the interior side of the throttle body..........The runners = from cast aluminum intake manifold to cast plenum are thin wall aluminum = tubing..........I do not have access to the ID of these but have OD = only....... >>=20 >> Primary Runner length approximately.........24 inches >> Primary Runner "OD" approximately..........1.40 inches >> Secondary Runner length approximately.....24 inches >> Secondary Runner "OD" approximately.......1.66 inches >> Throttle Body "ID" approximately..................2.85 inches >>=20 >> Hope this helps, >> Kelly Troyer >>=20 >>=20 >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:08 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com = > wrote: >> Thanks Kelly. If possible the ID of those runners as well please. >>=20 >>=20 >> > On 16 Mar 2021, at 10:44 pm, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: >> >=20 >> > Steve, >> > Bear with me but as soon as practicable I will do my best to = measure the intake length from engine face to face of the=20 >> > throttle body (plus ID of throttle body)............Yes the = "Mistral" engines are side intake ports............I believe (from = memory) >> > that they rated HP at 6500 rpm...........Still waiting on all the = "Mistral" documentation from the seller............ >> >=20 >> > Best, >> > Kelly Troyer >> >=20 >> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:51 AM Stephen Izett = stephen.izett@gmail.com = > = wrote: >> > Hi Kelly >> > Sounds really cool. Such a shame Mistral didn=E2=80=99t make it. >> > I thought their engines were side port. I=E2=80=99d love to know = the length of the inlet from the engine face to the throttle body and = the rpm that they rate the 200hp. >> >=20 >> > Cheers >> >=20 >> > Steve Izett >> > Glasair Super IIRG Renesis 4 port RD1C >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > > On 16 Mar 2021, at 9:59 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com = > wrote: >> > >=20 >> > > Lee, >> > > I ask because I recently became the proud owner of the = final iteration (Designed to be certified) "Mistral G200-C1B" 200hp >> > > Rotary engine and I am just curious as to what apex seals they = used in them........Since "Mistral" seems to be out of business I >> > > do not know where to get information (I have heard that the = Chinese bought them out)..............I do not need apex seals as the=20 >> > > engine only has about 10 flying hours on it..............=20 >> > >=20 >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kelly Troyer >> > >=20 >> > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6:01 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com = > wrote: >> > > I did not. I was asked to travel about inspecting installations = prior to first flight, or to assist with installations. >> > > But if asked I would have suggested Ceramic seals.=20 >> > > =20 >> > > We raced with Carbon seals and later, Ceramic seals. Carbons wear = too fast for aircraft use but are soft and leave the housing chrome = looking better than new as the years go by. No detectable wear at all. = Near perfect sealing. No skipping, no need for an extra spring. >> > > Same for Ceramics. Light weight. No wear. Very expensive. But if = you can use the same housings for 4 or 5 years, then not so bad. The = duty cycle of an aircraft engine is much tougher than that of a racer or = street engine. =20 >> > > All early engines Had the wide carbon seals. We machined them = down to fit the later rotors. So early housings would often run well = over 100,000 miles. The iron seals with a chrome face have you running = a chrome face against a chrome housing. Bad Mojo. With Premixing and or = oil injection not so bad. Hard starting suggests=20 >> > > worn apex seals. Both ceramic and carbon seals need to be sized = to the housing width. >> > > Any question, any time.=20 >> > > Lynn E. Hanover=20 >> > > =20 >> > > message dated 3/14/2021 11:29:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, = flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: >> > > =20 >> > > Lee Hanover, >> > > I seem to remember that you had some interaction back in the = day with "MISTRAL" when they were developing their >> > > Rotary engines .........If so did you ever hear what tip seals = they used in their engines ? (Iron , Ceramic , Etc)........... >> > > =20 >> > > Thanks, >> > > --=20 >> > > Kelly Troyer >> >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_9A831273-C6EC-426B-B94D-CBB9525797DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Charlie.
Yep. =46rom memory the first valve is the = secondaries OPEN/CLOSED.
Closely followed by the = VDI which as you recall opens for higher rpm dynamic torque = boost.
I think the distance from the engine face to = the VDI is around 11 inches. 
So your critical = measurement being ~ 11 + side port length.
I take = it Tracy ran out of room under that RV4 cowl utilising his straight = runners.

Cheers

Steve I

On 1 Apr = 2021, at 11:25 am, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Don't forget that the car needs = a flat torque curve from as low an rpm as possible to max rpm. We don't = really care about low rpm torque because the prop doesn't load the = engine at low rpm. I'd consider the critical measurement to be from the = secondary port to the first valve point; IIRC, it opens (on the Renesis) = at just under 6k rpm.

I think Tracy's cigar box manifold has = ~10-11 inch straight runners.

Charlie
Sent from BlueMail
On Mar 31, 2021, at 10:08 PM, "Stephen Izett = stephen.izett@gmail.com" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=46rom my notes: the Renesis 4 Port manifold was pretty close to 24 = inches between the engine face and throttle body.

Steve I
On 1 = Apr 2021, at 9:44 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Stephen,
  =  Sorry for the delay in getting back with you about the "Mistral" = intake runner lengths , etc............Be aware these numbers are = approximate but in the ballpark............The runner lengths are approx = centerline
from the face of the 13B engine block to = the throttle body..........Both the primary and secondary runners merge = into a "V" shaped cast aluminum plenum which includes the throttle = body.........The runner lengths 
are to the = interior side of the throttle body..........The runners from cast = aluminum intake manifold to cast plenum are thin wall aluminum = tubing..........I do not have access to the ID of these but have OD = only.......

Primary Runner length approximately.........24 = inches
Primary Runner "OD"  = approximately..........1.40 inches
Secondary Runner = length approximately.....24 inches
Secondary Runner = "OD" approximately.......1.66 inches
Throttle Body = "ID" approximately..................2.85 inches

  Hope this helps,
Kelly Troyer


On Tue, Mar = 16, 2021 at 5:08 PM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Thanks Kelly. If possible the ID of = those runners as well please.


> On 16 Mar 2021, at 10:44 pm, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>   Bear with me but as soon as practicable I will do my = best to measure the intake length from engine face to face of the
> throttle body (plus ID of throttle body)............Yes the = "Mistral" engines are side intake ports............I believe (from = memory)
> that they rated HP at 6500 rpm...........Still waiting on all the = "Mistral" documentation from the seller............
>
> Best,
> Kelly Troyer
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:51 AM Stephen Izett stephen.izett@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> Hi Kelly
> Sounds really cool. Such a shame Mistral didn=E2=80=99t make it.
> I thought their engines were side port. I=E2=80=99d love to know = the length of the inlet from the engine face to the throttle body and = the rpm that they rate the 200hp.
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve Izett
> Glasair Super IIRG Renesis 4 port RD1C
>
>
> > On 16 Mar 2021, at 9:59 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> >
> > Lee,
> >       I ask because I recently became the = proud owner of the final iteration (Designed to be certified)  = "Mistral G200-C1B" 200hp
> > Rotary engine  and I am just curious as to what apex = seals they used in them........Since "Mistral" seems to be out of = business I
> > do not know where to get information (I have heard that the = Chinese bought them out)..............I do not need apex seals as the =
> > engine only has about 10 flying hours on it..............
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kelly Troyer
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6:01 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
> > I did not. I was asked to travel about inspecting = installations prior to first flight, or to assist with installations.
> > But  if asked I would have suggested Ceramic  seals. =
> > 
> > We raced with Carbon seals and later, Ceramic seals. Carbons = wear too fast for aircraft use but are soft and leave the housing chrome = looking better than new as the years go by. No detectable wear at all. = Near perfect sealing.  No skipping, no need for an extra spring.
> > Same for Ceramics. Light weight. No wear. Very expensive. But = if you can use the same housings for 4 or 5 years, then not so = bad.  The duty cycle of an aircraft engine is much tougher than = that of a racer or street engine. 
> > All early engines Had the wide carbon seals. We machined them = down to fit the later rotors. So early housings would often run well = over 100,000 miles.  The iron seals with a chrome face have you = running a chrome face against a chrome housing. Bad Mojo. With Premixing = and or oil injection not so bad. Hard starting suggests
> > worn apex seals.  Both ceramic and carbon seals need to = be sized to the housing width.
> > Any question, any time.
> > Lynn E. Hanover
> > 
> >  message dated 3/14/2021 11:29:17 PM Eastern Standard = Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:
> > 
> > Lee Hanover,
> >     I seem to remember that you had some = interaction back in the day with "MISTRAL" when they were developing = their
> > Rotary engines .........If so did you ever hear what tip seals = they used in their engines ? (Iron , Ceramic , Etc)...........
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > --
> > Kelly Troyer
>





= --Apple-Mail=_9A831273-C6EC-426B-B94D-CBB9525797DF--