X-CGP-ClamAV-Result: CLEAN X-VirusScanner: Niversoft's CGPClamav Helper v1.23.0 (ClamAV engine v0.103.0) From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-oi1-f173.google.com ([209.85.167.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 1363687 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 23:25:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.173; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-oi1-f173.google.com with SMTP id n8so416730oie.10 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:25:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to:message-id; bh=WiRVzXZE7iHQZshPLMs17ZM93JBaW5+CP14FXQWjR0c=; b=gVchaQQJPqbcfnt0zTWho2xvFypDcpzmqU2zDyNjJVt4iowPgCWhV+lEqYei9jxyLh 9mjRB8Ol+FV2EUt9rfScXk74shmvh38IIZsAaKu0erMLzZUYOyjBQwfIfEcVCiULWede mvkhhZSAjAU600JZKFOhUtp4wziJO7Z3yfv/pIawWVObw5AWHMb4XV+uEA9JZgsvk1NE VPqZJuRyA3VC2cFrPmyYdx5XGUvU2B4HBTJx/guMo4zR+9DezYUMObaRsSggXpTJ3Sx2 cQi7zvmwqebBz06q5O0P2I6J1thaSoz9JEXvBNi184K+bzdwxmJHwc2vPIMZsb8WSf8G sRBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:in-reply-to:references:thread-topic:user-agent :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:from:date:to :message-id; bh=WiRVzXZE7iHQZshPLMs17ZM93JBaW5+CP14FXQWjR0c=; b=pASWA38Gkx2rPrlEMV8nn2/GiBpT/Zs4X8TixBWou329muof0l0Le7LDIQEtcfgT+2 wV7eXD2o0ZC30gLg+uFlpA9gWqt3F5Slo0JJLiQLmJbc+9AoGgYMPJTlNM6krYCYQ3RY 8bFa3zKKtqNLY/8+fJ2RBNZizO05shNSwh/ujevMHVv9lPk+ARhiTJmYzdsH29wx8oE3 UVZNh0rgFfx4yxGZWFv3XhbZzoAzSeBeaqRs28wUmDRQg0GnA7RiAKc9qA02LV5A5piJ kF5qMoZ8ArZ20o9JOaEoMOJXxkvmlMoLJTg/J576tE1nPYhOvN3wB4SpSMPTzgFamt9m pVPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532H9ClJWsqlDWklhCIieQQdSsryYq3sNYHFZW48yA8DDReEm+oX MtuHBGsg3XXOB53dzc1eL2/QJAqxTtk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxqNbKpfePyGakOQu6xHTmKsji+1dEQgOdPKTU3yeWkVshJuePZknp1RoNJ0CqbVY8gxeJb9w== X-Received: by 2002:a54:4696:: with SMTP id k22mr4588559oic.168.1617247527197; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPV6:2607:fb90:d085:cb8a:dc2:30e0:5cc:8d3f? ([2607:fb90:d085:cb8a:dc2:30e0:5cc:8d3f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g84sm849655oia.45.2021.03.31.20.25.26 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:25:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: X-Referenced-Uid: 51639 Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: MISTRAL User-Agent: Android X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----2S9Y0BGQACDBVO5S490AW89K59NFJI" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Local-Message-Id: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: MISTRAL Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 22:25:26 -0500 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: ------2S9Y0BGQACDBVO5S490AW89K59NFJI Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Don't forget that the car needs a flat torque curve from as low an rpm as p= ossible to max rpm=2E We don't really care about low rpm torque because the= prop doesn't load the engine at low rpm=2E I'd consider the critical measu= rement to be from the secondary port to the first valve point; IIRC, it ope= ns (on the Renesis) at just under 6k rpm=2E I think Tracy's cigar box man= ifold has ~10-11 inch straight runners=2E Charlie =E2=81=A3Sent from Blue= Mail =E2=80=8B On Mar 31, 2021, 10:08 PM, at 10:08 PM, "Stephen Izett step= hen=2Eizett@gmail=2Ecom" wrote: >From my no= tes: the Renesis 4 Port manifold was pretty close to 24 >inches between the= engine face and throttle body=2E > >Steve I > >> On 1 Apr 2021, at 9:44 am= , Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom > wrote: >= > >> Stephen, >> Sorry for the delay in getting back with you about the= "Mistral" >intake runner lengths , etc=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= Be aware these numbers are >approximate but in the ballpark=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EThe runner lengths are >approx centerline >> from the = face of the 13B engine block to the throttle >body=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2EBoth the primary and secondary runners merge into a "V" >shaped cast = aluminum plenum which includes the throttle >body=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2EThe runner lengths >> are to the interior side of the throttle body=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EThe runners >from cast aluminum intake manifold = to cast plenum are thin wall >aluminum tubing=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= I do not have access to the ID of these but >have OD only=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E >> >> Primary Runner length approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E24= inches >> Primary Runner "OD" approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= 1=2E40 inches >> Secondary Runner length approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E24 inc= hes >> Secondary Runner "OD" approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E1=2E66 inche= s >> Throttle Body "ID" approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E2=2E85 inches >> >> Hope this helps, >> Kelly Troyer >= > >> >> On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:08 PM Stephen Izett stephen=2Eizett@gma= il=2Ecom > > wrote: >> Thanks Kelly=2E If po= ssible the ID of those runners as well please=2E >> >> >> > On 16 Mar 202= 1, at 10:44 pm, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom > > w= rote: >> > >> > Steve, >> > Bear with me but as soon as practicable I wi= ll do my best to >measure the intake length from engine face to face of the= >> > throttle body (plus ID of throttle body)=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2EYes the >"Mistral" engines are side intake ports=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EI believe (from >memory) >> > that they rated HP at 6500 = rpm=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EStill waiting on all the >"Mistral" doc= umentation from the seller=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E >> > >> > B= est, >> > Kelly Troyer >> > >> > On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:51 AM Stephen I= zett >stephen=2Eizett@gmail=2Ecom >> >wrote:= >> > Hi Kelly >> > Sounds really cool=2E Such a shame Mistral didn=E2=80= =99t make it=2E >> > I thought their engines were side port=2E I=E2=80=99d = love to know the length >of the inlet from the engine face to the throttle = body and the rpm that >they rate the 200hp=2E >> > >> > Cheers >> > >> > = Steve Izett >> > Glasair Super IIRG Renesis 4 port RD1C >> > >> > >> > > = On 16 Mar 2021, at 9:59 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom > > wrote: >> > > >> > > Lee, >> > > I ask because I recently= became the proud owner of the >final iteration (Designed to be certified) = "Mistral G200-C1B" 200hp >> > > Rotary engine and I am just curious as to= what apex seals they >used in them=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2ESince "Mistral" = seems to be out of business I >> > > do not know where to get information (= I have heard that the >Chinese bought them out)=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2EI do not need apex seals as the >> > > engine only has abou= t 10 flying hours on it=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E >> > > = >> > > Thanks, >> > > Kelly Troyer >> > > >> > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 6= :01 PM lehanover lehanover@aol=2Ecom > > wrote: >> >= > I did not=2E I was asked to travel about inspecting installations >prior= to first flight, or to assist with installations=2E >> > > But if asked I= would have suggested Ceramic seals=2E >> > > >> > > We raced with Carb= on seals and later, Ceramic seals=2E Carbons wear >too fast for aircraft us= e but are soft and leave the housing chrome >looking better than new as the= years go by=2E No detectable wear at all=2E >Near perfect sealing=2E No s= kipping, no need for an extra spring=2E >> > > Same for Ceramics=2E Light w= eight=2E No wear=2E Very expensive=2E But if >you can use the same housings= for 4 or 5 years, then not so bad=2E The >duty cycle of an aircraft engin= e is much tougher than that of a racer >or street engine=2E >> > > All ea= rly engines Had the wide carbon seals=2E We machined them >down to fit the = later rotors=2E So early housings would often run well >over 100,000 miles= =2E The iron seals with a chrome face have you running >a chrome face agai= nst a chrome housing=2E Bad Mojo=2E With Premixing and or >oil injection no= t so bad=2E Hard starting suggests >> > > worn apex seals=2E Both ceramic= and carbon seals need to be sized >to the housing width=2E >> > > Any ques= tion, any time=2E >> > > Lynn E=2E Hanover >> > > >> > > message dated= 3/14/2021 11:29:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, >flyrotary@lancaironline=2Ene= t >writes: >> > > >> > > Lee Hanov= er, >> > > I seem to remember that you had some interaction back in the= >day with "MISTRAL" when they were developing their >> > > Rotary engines = =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EIf so did you ever hear what tip seals >they use= d in their engines ? (Iron , Ceramic , Etc)=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > -- >> > > Kelly Troyer >> > >> >> >>= ------2S9Y0BGQACDBVO5S490AW89K59NFJI Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't forget that the car needs a flat torque curve= from as low an rpm as possible to max rpm=2E We don't really care about lo= w rpm torque because the prop doesn't load the engine at low rpm=2E I'd con= sider the critical measurement to be from the secondary port to the first v= alve point; IIRC, it opens (on the Renesis) at just under 6k rpm=2E
I think Tracy's cigar box manifold has ~10-11 inc= h straight runners=2E

Charlie
Sent from BlueMai= l
On Mar 31, 2021, at 10:08 PM, "Stephen Izet= t stephen=2Eizett@gmail=2Ecom" <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote: From my notes: the= Renesis 4 Port manifold was pretty close to 24 inches between the engine f= ace and throttle body=2E

Steve I

On 1 Apr 2021, at 9:44 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom <flyrotary@lancaironline=2En= et> wrote:

Stephen,
   Sorry for the delay in getting back with you about = the "Mistral" intake runner lengths , etc=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2EBe aware these numbers are approximate but in the ballpark=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EThe runner lengths are approx centerline
from the face of the 13B engine block to the throttle body=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EBoth the primary and secondary runners merge into a= "V" shaped cast aluminum plenum which includes the throttle body=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EThe runner lengths 
are to the = interior side of the throttle body=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EThe runners= from cast aluminum intake manifold to cast plenum are thin wall alumi= num tubing=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EI do not have access to the ID of t= hese but have OD only=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E

Primary Runner length approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E24 inches
Primary Runner "OD"  app= roximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E1=2E40 inches
= Secondary Runner length approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E24 inches
Secondary Runner "OD" approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E1=2E66 inch= es
Throttle Body "ID" approximately=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E2=2E85 inches

  Hope this helps,
Kelly Troyer

<= /div>

On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:08 PM Stephen Izett stephen=2Eizett@gmail=2Ecom <flyrotary= @lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:
Thanks Kelly=2E If possible the ID of th= ose runners as well please=2E


> On 16 Mar 2021, at 10:44 pm, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom <flyr= otary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:
>
> Steve,
>   Bear with me but as soon as p= racticable I will do my best to measure the intake length from engine face = to face of the
> throttle body (plus ID of throttle body= )=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EYes the "Mistral" engines are side int= ake ports=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EI believe (from memory)
> that they rated HP at 6500 rpm=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E= =2EStill waiting on all the "Mistral" documentation from the seller=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E
>
> Bes= t,
> Kelly Troyer
>
>= ; On Tue, Mar 16, 2021 at 5:51 AM Stephen Izett stephen=2Eizett@gmail=2E= com <flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet> wrote:
= > Hi Kelly
> Sounds really cool=2E Such a shame Mistra= l didn=E2=80=99t make it=2E
> I thought their engines wer= e side port=2E I=E2=80=99d love to know the length of the inlet from the en= gine face to the throttle body and the rpm that they rate the 200hp=2E
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve Izett
> Glasair Super IIRG Renesis 4 po= rt RD1C
>
>
> > = On 16 Mar 2021, at 9:59 am, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail=2Ecom <flyrotary@la= ncaironline=2Enet> wrote:
> >
&= gt; > Lee,
> >       I ask beca= use I recently became the proud owner of the final iteration (Designed to b= e certified)  "Mistral G200-C1B" 200hp
> > Rotary= engine  and I am just curious as to what apex seals they used in them= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2ESince "Mistral" seems to be out of business I
> > do not know where to get information (I have heard that= the Chinese bought them out)=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EI do= not need apex seals as the
> > engine only has about= 10 flying hours on it=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E
> >
> > Thanks,
> >= Kelly Troyer
> >
> > On Mon, Ma= r 15, 2021 at 6:01 PM lehanover lehanover@aol=2Ecom <flyrotary@lancairon= line=2Enet> wrote:
> > I did not=2E I was asked= to travel about inspecting installations prior to first flight, or to assi= st with installations=2E
> > But  if asked I woul= d have suggested Ceramic  seals=2E
> >  > > We raced with Carbon seals and later, Ceramic seals= =2E Carbons wear too fast for aircraft use but are soft and leave the housi= ng chrome looking better than new as the years go by=2E No detectable wear = at all=2E Near perfect sealing=2E  No skipping, no need for an extra s= pring=2E
> > Same for Ceramics=2E Light weight=2E No w= ear=2E Very expensive=2E But if you can use the same housings for 4 or 5 ye= ars, then not so bad=2E  The duty cycle of an aircraft engine is much = tougher than that of a racer or street engine=2E 
>= > All early engines Had the wide carbon seals=2E We machined them down = to fit the later rotors=2E So early housings would often run well over 100,= 000 miles=2E  The iron seals with a chrome face have you running a chr= ome face against a chrome housing=2E Bad Mojo=2E With Premixing and or oil = injection not so bad=2E Hard starting suggests
> > wo= rn apex seals=2E  Both ceramic and carbon seals need to be sized to th= e housing width=2E
> > Any question, any time=2E
> > Lynn E=2E Hanover
> > 
> >  message dated 3/14/2021 11:29:17 PM Eastern Sta= ndard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline=2Enet writes:
>= ; > 
> > Lee Hanover,
> >= ;     I seem to remember that you had some interaction back = in the day with "MISTRAL" when they were developing their
&g= t; > Rotary engines =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2EIf so did you ever hear w= hat tip seals they used in their engines ? (Iron , Ceramic , Etc)=2E=2E=2E= =2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E
> > 
>= ; > Thanks,
> > --
> > Kelly = Troyer
>


<= br class=3D"">

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