X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=EuKsUhUA c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=dg4IilA35Stpn4h1fnSyIQ==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=DxjPifHaizMA:10 a=y4yBn9ojGxQA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=RG6hcgD4AAAA:8 a=fR6g6WPwAAAA:8 a=L6szin2U7GgM6abqaGkA:9 a=vXu0DEbk2WWvt2Fa:21 a=7B4DmnysOxSd5r6I:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=u2hsSqVucl3aJsL5NEMA:9 a=t69obRqGfNG-CPVA:21 a=jdv0DHT7v8azd81n:21 a=DDbazK5xoMxN22YL:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=N6I4LDFSjv0JWTRmzZqO:22 a=pVye9tYEF4-vSOQs7cMh:22 From: "James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com" Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com ([209.85.221.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 664230 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:03:46 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.51; envelope-from=flyboyusvi@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id z18so1917813wrm.12 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 06:03:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bQ7jJujw+SwcZTgw4OtHukpg0ronuTuOPBf8t7BYQK0=; b=pc34fDzKxm7xyZkjy1+Mkc+jEYSGJYLIe0PablempO03fcr0lUDj9cSa457ZX5VBk1 PvxPCTkg4omSgcK4MorMnLBVB8r305VhFwu3dMme9dF482pD/WhbLHjtWkg0l8Rl69fq DUzseNOGxHNz9fLn7XxU8TZp2+pbJtZdWab/HELiKOCsqsFCIrdzFi48Uvja5mJRQaEv jUdVqNna4XRligSRggpjcRE2cJma4KLNoeaAtqJorZUZX6u8jHQvAG+PHWQaVUkUWNLh xAbn59FCQzc/retOB4kDkTKOv5uDSh3g+yIr0/wb2PfhIExjPmoWdFLp6WYg57KaKAT9 lsSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bQ7jJujw+SwcZTgw4OtHukpg0ronuTuOPBf8t7BYQK0=; b=kB+U0z9Xfn8IwfQGEqax0t7IwFJXq/WrKJO0D/Dp+A5fsE4PFZnm9a3S0wdyHdzQ7R gX2ycI9NDUnXw6C9KjrSgU0nt1XxeVAEW/vWRNuTQ0+/WRSualhAK/khaT/p2cpnL2ZG NlkDIeNnsovpZVZqMjHtvEiHPVc0acOt6An3Uj+K3pzWTYXHqXw2Rn56h+8sob2mme4s qTC1m6gec8l0OE7jK9CZ4yPXxoJbnoiVeb6FMYgeybqbtNZ1l9fuICV2sGRhMwg4QGMu UpXlAayZF3BW968HcYeWjzMut39uDJEnkJ3gYybV9pprJ41HXcIXe0bAWyo8UeuFcqFf Ft4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533mytK2KGFmBJ5amhv74laVwr4w0mZmMMI9VqviBkRzEnnT1Po1 /536LAlyM2vdDlblZ2aSL7FdgPGx1WSI+RdZPay4M8Z56+KnGA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxUzCGnYXnxK9/1wjQVVlZBjjVYQHx7G0rYhTJvGQJ9dY69i0Iiu1hgRkGv0AGc/NKFA0bXldS6x59jG1WQH6Q= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5681:: with SMTP id f1mr2981817wrv.192.1597928604499; Thu, 20 Aug 2020 06:03:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:01:26 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d902b105ad4ebea5" --000000000000d902b105ad4ebea5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll address this to Dave L and Todd B. But...anyone out there with experience with the situation can share. I have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with the oil and water cooled ceramic bearing Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin scroll 1.45 AR to keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine wheel. This should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have 400 hp available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm at the C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cruise will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency / gas bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place. Advise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it > in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to.= I > couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. > Thanks james Whitehurst. > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Todd, >> >> Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my >> turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight f= rom >> the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm wi= th >> a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. >> >> >> >> Neil >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to chang= e >> out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed the >> wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That >> gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist. = Its >> perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator a= nd >> will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. >> Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. >> >> >> >> It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the >> Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. >> Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. >> >> >> >> We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine >> the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to sa= ve >> on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this me= ans >> I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what I can do >> about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have eno= ugh >> spare parts to build another airplane. >> >> As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not >> asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but agai= n >> this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me ha= s >> made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up = the >> ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none. >> >> I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart >> controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I >> may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I >> receive it. >> >> Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently >> removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to >> space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I no= w >> think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity wi= th >> some space freed up to do a better install. >> >> Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the >> big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing = it >> told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine= , >> behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thin= g >> to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary >> alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit= of >> free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably >> require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... >> >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave; >> >> Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the >> wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? >> >> I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to >> know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rathe= r >> than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14ps= i >> spring. >> >> I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart >> electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressure= s >> at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the >> actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring >> pressure is. >> >> One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engin= e >> was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 rot= ors. >> >> Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my >> boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. >> >> When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without >> detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the engi= ne >> to regularly. >> >> >> >> Thanks, Todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave; >> >> I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was >> looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should ha= ve >> then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. >> >> But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm >> thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you = do, >> if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go = for >> the "stage 4". >> >> The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for >> a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could >> source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know >> enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the finis= h >> line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of >> $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying = the >> $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internation= al >> shipping. >> >> So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over >> the edge and call him back with my visa#. >> >> If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past >> this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. >> >> >> >> Todd >> >> (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that >> there is less fans than my beer league games) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Todd, >> >> Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. Hav= e >> tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the= job. >> Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 >> cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path = of >> fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that t= oo >> many times before. >> >> Thanks, Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Hi Neil; >> >> I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said i= t >> was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later t= his >> fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just = get >> one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a >> no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. >> Then I'm only paying shipping one way. >> >> So for you that would make even more sense. >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Dave and all, >> >> Finally great advice that I cannot get >> anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line g= oes dead. The oil >> cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo >> failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil tha= t can fit >> into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-= - >> all 5 gallons of it. >> >> Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight >> both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will b= e >> $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be >> another $300 at least. >> >> >> >> Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Hi Dave; >> >> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >> >> >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >> >> >> >> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhap= s >> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not go= ing >> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to >> achieve it. >> >> >> >> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b i= t >> ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts= . >> I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see w= hat >> I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for >> about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runni= ng >> over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably on= ly >> lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. >> The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home an= d >> decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k >> altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >> >> >> >> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my >> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the >> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you c= an >> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as yo= u >> need. >> >> >> >> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are >> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to >> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Tr= y >> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away >> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You w= ill >> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily >> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >> aircraft. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Group, >> >> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as= to >> not get into >> >> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >> >> >> >> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >> >> >> >> Kelly troyer >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >> >> Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> James, >> >> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have >> options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the >> level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about >> Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or >> TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >> >> >> >> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> James, >> >> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Th= ink they >> have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying = to >> get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk= to >> drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi tur= bos >> for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. >> >> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much = to >> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that >> may fit. >> >> Best, Neil. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience = is >> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage fo= r >> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it > in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions you referred to.= I > couldn't access the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. > Thanks james Whitehurst. > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com > wrote: > >> Todd, >> >> Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgrade my >> turbo. Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade. Saving freight f= rom >> the US if successful. Called precision turbos. Seem to be a US firm wi= th >> a local branch. Hopefully I can get what I am after. >> >> >> >> Neil >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Hi Todd, I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to chang= e >> out the actuator. I have 2 turbos from BNR. In one I removed the >> wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole wide open. That >> gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist. = Its >> perfect for my everyday flying. The other one uses the stock actuator a= nd >> will give me 45" at 10k density altitude. I call it my race turbo. >> Nothing like raging around at Vne. Nothing like the gas bill either. >> >> >> >> It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart. Bummer they dont do the >> Stage 4 anymore. Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu. >> Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little. >> >> >> >> We definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime. >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine >> the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to sa= ve >> on shipping down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this me= ans >> I get to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what I can do >> about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have eno= ugh >> spare parts to build another airplane. >> >> As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not >> asking much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but agai= n >> this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me ha= s >> made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up = the >> ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none. >> >> I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart >> controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I >> may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I >> receive it. >> >> Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had recently >> removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installation due to >> space constraints and didn't think it was really doing much for me. I no= w >> think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity wi= th >> some space freed up to do a better install. >> >> Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the >> big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the first thing = it >> told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side of the engine= , >> behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was an easy thin= g >> to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my primary >> alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite a bit= of >> free space in which to mount the intercooler, however it will probably >> require some modification. This is all yet to be determined.... >> >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave; >> >> Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the >> wastegate that he provided? And what pressure is the spring? >> >> I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to >> know what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rathe= r >> than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14ps= i >> spring. >> >> I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart >> electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-programed pressure= s >> at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure signal to the >> actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the spring >> pressure is. >> >> One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engin= e >> was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 rot= ors. >> >> Fot that reason I've always been conservative and tried to limit my >> boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure. >> >> When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without >> detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subject the engi= ne >> to regularly. >> >> >> >> Thanks, Todd >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Hi Dave; >> >> I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was >> looking for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should ha= ve >> then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me. >> >> But other than that I did like what he has to offer. However I'm >> thinking that even though I don't feel that I have the demands that you = do, >> if I'm going to go this far, I'm going all the way and might as well go = for >> the "stage 4". >> >> The "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room for >> a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I could >> source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know >> enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the finis= h >> line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of >> $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying = the >> $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internation= al >> shipping. >> >> So I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over >> the edge and call him back with my visa#. >> >> If he had an "add to cart" button on his website I think we'd be past >> this point after a few beers watching playoff hockey. >> >> >> >> Todd >> >> (The only thing stranger than watching hockey in August, is that >> there is less fans than my beer league games) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@gmail.com, < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Todd, >> >> Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking. Hav= e >> tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the= job. >> Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way. Makes the $100 >> cheap. Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way down the path = of >> fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again. Done that t= oo >> many times before. >> >> Thanks, Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Hi Neil; >> >> I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said i= t >> was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later t= his >> fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just = get >> one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a >> no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. >> Then I'm only paying shipping one way. >> >> So for you that would make even more sense. >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Dave and all, >> >> Finally great advice that I cannot get >> anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line g= oes dead. The oil >> cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with a turbo >> failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil tha= t can fit >> into an exhaust! That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-= - >> all 5 gallons of it. >> >> Will see what I can source here in OZ as to a turbo , as the freight >> both ways to the US is murderous. Happy with the mod cost which will b= e >> $1300 Oz dollars. Still a cheap turbo. Freight I am guessing will be >> another $300 at least. >> >> >> >> Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Hi Dave; >> >> What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil? >> >> >> >> Todd Bartrim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Kelly, you are right. I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above. >> >> >> >> Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in its >> proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be >> giving. You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem that perhap= s >> you dont have a specific target in mind. Thats fine, but you are not go= ing >> to land much above 180hp unless you have a specific target and a plan to >> achieve it. >> >> >> >> The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine. It and the 2nd gen 13b i= t >> ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for short bursts= . >> I did what you are thinking about doing. I ran the stock turbo to see w= hat >> I would get. I was making a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for >> about 70 flight hours. Looking at its turbo map, the impeller was runni= ng >> over 100k RPM. It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours. It probably on= ly >> lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power. >> The turbo imploded on my first long cross country. I was almost home an= d >> decided to let it loose a little. I was running about 30" MAP at 17.5k >> altitude. It lasted about 30 min doing that. >> >> >> >> My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a >> shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo. I now have one in my >> installation. When the turbo goes it will be hemorrhaging oil into the >> exhaust. Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil before you c= an >> get very far. With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a as long as yo= u >> need. >> >> >> >> Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you. Make up numbers that are >> realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realistically want to >> fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters. You can cut and paste >> various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet. They are available on the >> internet but most of the relevant ones are there on the spreadsheet. Tr= y >> to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away >> from the 'surge' line. Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible. You w= ill >> find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice and readily >> available. You will also see that the stock T3 does not belong in an >> aircraft. >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Group, >> >> I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I >> settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so as= to >> not get into >> >> any overspeed problems..........FWIW >> >> >> >> http://www.turboneticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0 >> >> >> >> Kelly troyer >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> Dave, >> >> Just how much extra Hp do you think you got withy the >> upgraded Turbo? I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the stock >> Hitachi. Am I off with the fairys having this expectation? >> >> Neil. >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> James, >> >> I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars. They also have >> options for the Renisis. http://bnrsupercars.com/ Cost is $950 for the >> level 4 upgrade. Makes a nice tight fit. I had a big discussion about >> Turbo maps that you can find in the archives. I settled on a TO4-H or >> TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level. >> >> >> >> Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate >> various parameters in selecting a turbo. >> >> >> >> Dave Leonard >> >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com < >> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >> >> James, >> >> 2 flying that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd Bartrim and Dave leonnard. Th= ink they >> have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo. Just been around the world trying = to >> get an affordable turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk= to >> drag racers etc., Quotes between $4500 and $6500. Bought 2 hitachi tur= bos >> for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings. >> >> There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight >> only. Would be a bargain. Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much = to >> go that I have not factored as usual. Finally found an intercooler that >> may fit. >> >> Best, Neil. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Sent:* Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in aircraft >> >> >> >> Does anyone out there have any recommendations for a turbo (brand and >> size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience = is >> appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are different from >> aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing the decision stage fo= r >> turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst >> >> >> >> >> --000000000000d902b105ad4ebea5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll address this to Dave L and Tod= d B.
But...anyone out there with experience with the situa= tion can share. I have a recommendation of the Borg Warner EFR 9280 with th= e oil and water cooled ceramic bearing=C2=A0 Aluminum CHRA with a T04 twin = scroll 1.45 AR to keep the pulses separate till they meet the fancy turbine= wheel. This should allow the custom PPort to breathe. The goal is to have = 400 hp available at 8400 rpm driving a 3.1 reduction gear to get 2700 rpm a= t the C/S prop. I want to get off the water/ground fast and land slow!!! Cr= uise will be probably around 6-7 thousand rpm depending on the efficiency /= gas bill. Getting airborne fast is important the rest will fall into place= . Advise or discussion appreciated. James Whitehurst

On Sat, Aug 8, 20= 20, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi@gmail.com <flyrot= ary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Dave L, thanks for the spreadsheet. I will try to learn= enough to use it in the near future... I tried to look up the discussions = you referred to. I couldn't=C2=A0 access the info? Any help or guidance= would be appreciated. Thanks james Whitehurst.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 <= a href=3D"mailto:12348ung@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target= =3D"_blank">12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally located a turbo shop that can upgr= ade my turbo.=C2=A0 Have sent it to them for inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0 Sa= ving freight from the US if successful.=C2=A0 Called precision turbos.=C2= =A0 Seem to be a US firm with a local branch.=C2=A0 Hopefully I can get wha= t I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotar= y@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM=
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Tur= bos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I = dont think you will miss the AMU. It is easy enough to change out the actua= tor.=C2=A0 I have 2 turbos from BNR.=C2=A0 In one I removed the wastegate f= lapper all together and just left the hole wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me a= bout 42" MAP at sea level and protects me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its= perfect for my everyday flying.=C2=A0 The other one uses the stock actuato= r and will give me 45" at 10k density altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my rac= e turbo. =C2=A0 Nothing like raging around at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the g= as bill either.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It will be easy eno= ugh to use your TurboSmart.=C2=A0 Bummer they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.= =C2=A0 Seemed like a lot of work for them to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull = they still port the wastegate a little.

=C2=A0

W= e definitely have to get together for a hockey game sometime.=

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Wed,= Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com= <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= wrote:

I ended up ordering the stage 3 turbo f= rom BNR as they no longer machine the exhaust housing to make a stage 4. I = paid the $100 core charge to save on shipping down there. I'd rather gi= ve it to him than FedEx. So this means I get to keep my old turbo so maybe = in the future I'll see what=C2=A0I can do about sourcing the parts to d= o my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll have enough spare parts to build ano= ther airplane.

=C2=A0 As they = say "ignorance is bliss", and I was content to think I was not as= king much of my turbo and so I didn't have to worry about it, but again= this list has proven its value as random info not even directed at me has = made me aware that at any given time my poor little turbo could give up the= ghost and leave me looking for a place to put down where there are none.

=C2=A0 I asked him to put= a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the TurboSmart controller will allow me = to achieve more at the touch of a button. But I may just replace it with my= own actuator anyways. I'll decide when I receive=C2=A0it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I'm going to re= think my intercooler installation. I had recently removed it as I didn'= t feel it was a very effective installation due to space constraints=C2=A0a= nd didn't think it was really doing much for me. I now think it was doi= ng more than I thought, but I now have an opportunity with some space freed= up to do a better install.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last year I bought a little bitty tiny lithium battery to = replace the big old lead acid battery. As it has some smarts on it, the fir= st thing it told me was that it didn't like being over on the hot side = of the engine, behind the turbo. So since it is so small and light, it was = an easy thing to move over to the other side of the engine, right beside my= primary alternator. So I removed the Vans battery mount and now have quite= a bit of free space in which to mount the intercooler, however=C2=A0it wil= l probably require some modification. This is all yet to be determined....<= u>


Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancai= ronline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 Another question for you about you= r wastegate. Are you using the wastegate that he provided? And what pressur= e is the spring?

=C2=A0 = I told him I would rather use my own wastegate, but he didn't seem to k= now what I was talking about when I told him it was a piston type rather th= an a diaphragm and kept insisting that I'd want to use his with a 14psi= spring.

I also want the= lowest possible spring pressure as I have a TurboSmart electronic boost co= ntroller which can give higher pre-programed pressures at the touch of a bu= tton, by venting the boost pressure signal to the actuator. But it can'= t give any pressure lower than what the spring pressure is.

=C2=A0 One of my considerations for low= er max boost pressure is that my engine was not originally turbocharged so = I have the high compression 9.4:1 rotors.

=C2=A0 Fot that reason I've always been conservative = and tried to limit my boost to 6psi, which is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original d= iaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16 psi without detonation, and it was = fun, but not something I want to subject the engine to regularly.=

=C2=A0

Thanks, Todd

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Ba= rtrim bartrim@gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0= I talked with BNR today and I'm not sure he really got what I was looki= ng for as he started by saying that a "stage 3" is what I should = have then said probably a "stage 1" would be good for me.<= u>

=C2=A0 But other than that I di= d like what he has to offer. However I'm thinking that even though I do= n't feel that I have the demands that you do, if I'm going to go th= is far, I'm going all the way and might as well go for the "stage = 4".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Th= e "stage 4" involves machining the exhaust housing to make room f= or a larger turbine wheel while the others don't. So I wonder if I coul= d source those other items and do this myself. But as I don't even know= enough about my starting point it's not very realistic to find the fin= ish line without a significant investment in time. So for the low price of = $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I'm also convinced that paying= the $0.1amu core charge is good value when you have to deal with internati= onal shipping.=C2=A0

So = I guess I just need someone to give me a little shove to push me over the e= dge and call him back with my visa#.

=C2=A0 If he had an "add to cart" button on his we= bsite I think we'd be past this point after a few beers watching playof= f hockey.

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0Todd

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(The only thing stranger= than watching hockey in August, is that there is less fans than my beer le= ague games)

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 17:03 12348ung@= gmail.com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et> wrote:

Tod= d,

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what I was thinking.=C2=A0 Have= tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant or don=E2=80=99t want the j= ob.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can be $300 each way.=C2=A0 Mak= es the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, and see what eventuates as way = down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really do not want to start again= .=C2=A0 Done that too many times before.

Thanks,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 5= , 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;=

=C2=A0 I talked to BNR today = on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it was about a 3 week turnar= ound time on the turbo, so I said maybe later this fall. So he suggested th= at for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just get one there and modify it= for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda a no-brainer, because it = would cost me that much to ship mine down to him. Then I'm only paying = shipping one way.

=C2=A0= =C2=A0So for you that would make even more sense.=C2=A0
<= u>

Todd Bartrim<= u>

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM 12348= ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net> wrote:

Dave and all,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Final= ly great advice that I cannot get anywhere else as mention =E2=80=9CAircraf= t=E2=80=9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The oil cut off is great as = well for I have personal experience with =C2=A0a turbo failure in a truck = =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil that can fit into an exha= ust!=C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replacing the turbo-- all 5 ga= llons of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source here in OZ =C2=A0as to = a turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 is murderous.=C2=A0 Happ= y with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.=C2=A0 Still a cheap tur= bo.=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $300 at least.

=C2=A0

Neil.=

=C2=A0=

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, Augu= st 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [= FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi D= ave;

=C2=A0 What did you use f= or a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM= David Leonard wdleonard@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Kelly, you are right.= =C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post above.

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much as keeping the turbo in i= ts proper operating environment for the conditions you are going to be givi= ng.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in your post, but it seem tha= t perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0target in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fi= ne, but you are not going to land much above 180hp unless you have a specif= ic target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbine.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd = gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in the car - and only for shor= t bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about doing.=C2=A0 I ran the st= ock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was making a little over 200hp a= nd the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2=A0 Looking=C2=A0at its tu= rbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.=C2=A0 It's very surpri= sing it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only lasted that long because mo= st of the time I was not running full power.=C2=A0 The turbo imploded on my= first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost home and decided to let it lo= ose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30" MAP at 17.5k altitude= .=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

=C2=A0

My advice, if you want to experiment with turbos, is to install a shut-of= f valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2=A0 I now have one in my insta= llation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it will be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil in= to the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valve, you will run out of oil bef= ore you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valve, you can continue to fly n/a= as long as you need.

= =C2=A0

Play around with = that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numbers that are realistic for h= ow much boost at what altitude you realistically=C2=A0want to fly, then fin= d a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You can cut and paste various turb= o maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are available on the internet but m= ost of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to ke= ep the turbo in its center island of efficiency while staying away from the= 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM under 60k if possible.=C2= =A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the TO4-E50 is a good choice an= d readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that the stock T3 does not bel= ong in an aircraft.

=C2= =A0

Best,<= /p>

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troyer ke= ltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but when I purchased my turbo I sett= led on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15 a/r turbine housing so= as to not get into=C2=A0

any overspeed problems..........FWIW

=C2=A0

http://www.turbo= neticsinc.com/industrial/product/turbochargers-0=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

Kelly troyer

=C2=A0

On = Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 12348ung@gmail.com &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp do you think you got = withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 250 to 300 HP from the= stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having this expectation?

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mond= ay, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

James,

I had my stock hous= ing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also have options for the = Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercars.com/=C2=A0Cost i= s $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice tight fit.=C2=A0 I had a= big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in the archives.=C2=A0 I= settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350hp at sea level.=

=C2=A0

=

Attached is a turbo excel spreadsheet that you = can use to evaluate various parameters in selecting a turbo.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, = Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:<= /u>

James,

=C2=A0 2 flying that I know of =E2=80= =93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think they have the standar= d RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world trying to get an affo= rdable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which does not exist if you talk to drag = racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2=A0 Bought 2 hitachi t= urbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the other will need bearings.<= /span>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Africa for freight only.=C2=A0= Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, but as usual much to g= o that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally found an intercooler tha= t may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM
To: Rotary = motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos for 13b's in air= craft

=C2=A0

Does anyone out there have any recommendations= for a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft? 300-400 hp range. R= easons or experience is appreciated! Auto racers have their needs but are d= ifferent from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b's are nearing th= e decision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst


=C2=A0

=
=

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020, 16:19 James Whitehurst flyboyusvi= @gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= /div>
Dave L, thanks for th= e spreadsheet. I will try to learn enough to use it in the near future... I= tried to look up the discussions you referred to. I couldn't=C2=A0 acc= ess the info? Any help or guidance would be appreciated. Thanks james White= hurst.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 19:09 12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Have finally l= ocated a turbo shop that can upgrade my turbo.=C2=A0 Have sent it to them f= or inspection / upgrade.=C2=A0 Saving freight from the US if successful.=C2= =A0 Called precision turbos.=C2=A0 Seem to be a US firm with a local branch= .=C2=A0 Hopefully I can get what I am after.

=C2=A0

Neil

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 3:39 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft=

=C2=A0

Hi Todd,=C2=A0 I dont think you will miss the AMU. It is eas= y enough to change out the actuator.=C2=A0 I have 2 turbos from BNR.=C2=A0 = In one I removed the wastegate flapper all together and just left the hole = wide open.=C2=A0 That gives me about 42" MAP at sea level and protects= me from my lead fist.=C2=A0 Its perfect for my everyday flying.=C2=A0 The = other one uses the stock actuator and will give me 45" at 10k density = altitude.=C2=A0 I call it my race turbo. =C2=A0 Nothing like raging around = at Vne.=C2=A0 Nothing like the gas bill either.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It will be easy enough to use your TurboSmart.=C2=A0 Bummer = they dont do the Stage 4 anymore.=C2=A0 Seemed like a lot of work for them = to do for 0.1amu.=C2=A0 Hopefull they still port the wastegate a little.=

=C2=A0

We definitely have to get together for a ho= ckey game sometime.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 9:23 PM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I ende= d up ordering the stage 3 turbo from BNR as they no longer machine the exha= ust housing to make a stage 4. I paid the $100 core charge to save on shipp= ing down there. I'd rather give it to him than FedEx. So this means I g= et to keep my old turbo so maybe in the future I'll see what=C2=A0I can= do about sourcing the parts to do my own upgrade. Pretty soon I'll hav= e enough spare parts to build another airplane.

=C2=A0 As they say "ignorance is bliss", and I = was content to think I was not asking much of my turbo and so I didn't = have to worry about it, but again this list has proven its value as random = info not even directed at me has made me aware that at any given time my po= or little turbo could give up the ghost and leave me looking for a place to= put down where there are none.

=C2=A0 I asked him to put a 7psi spring in the actuator, as the Tur= boSmart controller will allow me to achieve more at the touch of a button. = But I may just replace it with my own actuator anyways. I'll decide whe= n I receive=C2=A0it.

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Now I'm going to rethink my intercooler installation. I had r= ecently removed it as I didn't feel it was a very effective installatio= n due to space constraints=C2=A0and didn't think it was really doing mu= ch for me. I now think it was doing more than I thought, but I now have an = opportunity with some space freed up to do a better install.<= /p>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Last year I bought a litt= le bitty tiny lithium battery to replace the big old lead acid battery. As = it has some smarts on it, the first thing it told me was that it didn't= like being over on the hot side of the engine, behind the turbo. So since = it is so small and light, it was an easy thing to move over to the other si= de of the engine, right beside my primary alternator. So I removed the Vans= battery mount and now have quite a bit of free space in which to mount the= intercooler, however=C2=A0it will probably require some modification. This= is all yet to be determined....


Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2= =A0

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 1:17 = AM Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0= Another question for you about your wastegate. Are you using the wastegate= that he provided? And what pressure is the spring?

=

=C2=A0 I told him I would rather use my own was= tegate, but he didn't seem to know what I was talking about when I told= him it was a piston type rather than a diaphragm and kept insisting that I= 'd want to use his with a 14psi spring.

I also want the lowest possible spring pressure as I ha= ve a TurboSmart electronic boost controller which can give higher pre-progr= amed pressures at the touch of a button, by venting the boost pressure sign= al to the actuator. But it can't give any pressure lower than what the = spring pressure is.

=C2= =A0 One of my considerations for lower max boost pressure is that my engine= was not originally turbocharged so I have the high compression 9.4:1 rotor= s.

=C2=A0 Fot that reaso= n I've always been conservative and tried to limit my boost to 6psi, wh= ich is my current spring pressure.

=C2=A0 When my original diaphragm actuator burst, I saw about 16= psi without detonation, and it was fun, but not something I want to subjec= t the engine to regularly.

=C2=A0

Thanks, Todd

=C2=A0

<= /div>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

O= n Tue., Aug. 4, 2020, 23:12 Todd Bartrim bartrim@gmail= .com, <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Dave;

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The "stage 4" involves machining t= he exhaust housing to make room for a larger turbine wheel while the others= don't. So I wonder if I could source those other items and do this mys= elf. But as I don't even know enough about my starting point it's n= ot very realistic to find the finish line without a significant investment = in time. So for the low price of $1amu, I can have more than what I need. I= 'm also convinced that paying the $0.1amu core charge is good value whe= n you have to deal with international shipping.=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Todd,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Thanks for that as was exactly what= I was thinking.=C2=A0 Have tried many workshops in OZ and either ignorant = or don=E2=80=99t want the job.=C2=A0 Freight listed to the US and back can = be $300 each way.=C2=A0 Makes the $100 cheap.=C2=A0 Will contact them, and = see what eventuates as way down the path of fitting the stock turbo, really= do not want to start again.=C2=A0 Done that too many times before.<= u>

Thanks,=C2=A0 = Neil.

= =C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sen= t: Wednesday, August 5, 2020 9:56 AM
To: Rotary motors in air= craft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>= ;
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft

=C2=A0

Hi Neil;

=C2= =A0 I talked to BNR today on the phone about my needs and wants. He said it= was about a 3 week turnaround time on the turbo, so I said maybe later thi= s fall. So he suggested that for a $100 dollar core charge, he could just g= et one there and modify it for me and I can keep this one. That's kinda= a no-brainer, because it would cost me that much to ship mine down to him.= Then I'm only paying shipping one way.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0So for you that would make even more sense= .=C2=A0

Todd Bartrim

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 3:41 PM <= a href=3D"mailto:12348ung@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferre= r" target=3D"_blank">12348ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Dave and all,

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Finally great advice that I cannot get anywhere else as = mention =E2=80=9CAircraft=E2=80=9D and the phone line goes dead.=C2=A0 The = oil cut off is great as well for I have personal experience with =C2=A0a tu= rbo failure in a truck =E2=80=93 you would not believe the amount of oil th= at can fit into an exhaust!=C2=A0 That took more time to clean than replaci= ng the turbo-- all 5 gallons of it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0Will see what I can source = here in OZ =C2=A0as to a turbo , as the freight both ways to the US=C2=A0 i= s murderous.=C2=A0 Happy with the mod cost which will be $1300 Oz dollars.= =C2=A0 Still a cheap turbo.=C2=A0 Freight I am guessing will be another $30= 0 at least.

=C2=A0

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft &l= t;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 4:42 PM
To: Rotary motors in a= ircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt;
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircraft<= /u>

=C2=A0

Hi Dave;

= =C2=A0 What did you use for a shut-off valve for your oil?

=C2=A0

=

Todd Bartrim

=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On = Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:16 PM David Leonard wdleonard@= gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t> wrote:

Kelly, you are right.=C2=A0 I even mentioned the TO4-E50 in my post abo= ve.

=C2=A0

Mark, its not about the horsepower so much = as keeping the turbo in its proper operating environment for the conditions= you are going to be giving.=C2=A0 You mentioned "300-400hp" in y= our post, but it seem that perhaps you dont=C2=A0have a specific=C2=A0targe= t in mind.=C2=A0 Thats fine, but you are not going to land much above 180hp= unless you have a specific target and a plan to achieve it.=C2=A0=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

The stock hitachi you mention is a T3 turbi= ne.=C2=A0 It and the 2nd gen 13b it ran with were only rated at 200hp in th= e car - and only for short bursts.=C2=A0 I did what you are thinking about = doing.=C2=A0 I ran the stock turbo to see what I would get.=C2=A0 I was mak= ing a little over 200hp and the turbo lasted for about 70 flight hours.=C2= =A0 Looking=C2=A0at its turbo map, the impeller was running over 100k RPM.= =C2=A0 It's very surprising it lasted 70 hours.=C2=A0 It probably only = lasted that long because most of the time I was not running full power.=C2= =A0 The turbo imploded on my first long cross country.=C2=A0 I was almost h= ome and decided to let it loose a little.=C2=A0 I was running=C2=A0about 30= " MAP at 17.5k altitude.=C2=A0 It lasted about 30 min doing that.

=C2=A0

My advice, if you want to experiment with tur= bos, is to install a shut-off valve on the oil feed line to the turbo.=C2= =A0 I now have one in my installation.=C2=A0 When the turbo=C2=A0goes it wi= ll be hemorrhaging=C2=A0oil into the exhaust.=C2=A0 Without a shut-off valv= e, you will run out of oil before you can get very far.=C2=A0 With the valv= e, you can continue to fly n/a as long as you need.

=

=C2=A0

Play around with that spreadsheet I sent you.=C2=A0 Make up numb= ers that are realistic for how much boost at what altitude you realisticall= y=C2=A0want to fly, then find a turbo to fit those parameters.=C2=A0 You ca= n cut and paste various turbo maps onto the spreadsheet.=C2=A0 They are ava= ilable on the internet but most of the relevant=C2=A0ones are there on the = spreadsheet.=C2=A0 Try to keep the turbo in its center island of efficiency= while staying away from the 'surge' line.=C2=A0 Also, keep the RPM= under 60k if possible.=C2=A0 You will find that Kellys suggestion of the T= O4-E50 is a good choice and readily available.=C2=A0 You will also see that= the stock T3 does not belong in an aircraft.

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0

Best,

Dave Leonard<= u>

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 5:19 PM Kelly Troy= er keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Group,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have no running experience yet but when I pu= rchased my turbo I settled on a "Turbonetics" TO4-E50 with a 1.15= a/r turbine housing so as to not get into=C2=A0

any overspeed problems..........FWIW=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kelly troyer

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 4:51 PM 123= 48ung@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancairon= line.net> wrote:

Dave,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Just how much extra Hp = do you think you got withy the upgraded Turbo?=C2=A0 I will be happy with 2= 50 to 300 HP from the stock Hitachi.=C2=A0 Am I off with the fairys having = this expectation?

Neil.

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in airc= raft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=
Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 4:07 AM
To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.ne= t>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Turbos for 13b's in aircra= ft

=C2=A0

James,

I had my stock housing upgraded to TO4 by BNR Supercars.=C2=A0 They also= have options for the Renisis.=C2=A0http://bnrsupercar= s.com/=C2=A0Cost is $950 for the level 4 upgrade.=C2=A0 Makes a nice ti= ght fit.=C2=A0 I had a big discussion about Turbo maps that you can find in= the archives.=C2=A0 I settled on a TO4-H or TO4-E50 to top out around 350h= p at sea level.

=C2=A0

Attached is a turbo excel= spreadsheet that you can use to evaluate various parameters in selecting a= turbo.

=C2=A0=

Dave Leonard

=C2=A0

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 12:07 AM 12348u= ng@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline= .net> wrote:

James,

=C2=A0 2 flying= that I know of =E2=80=93 Todd=C2=A0 Bartrim and Dave leonnard.=C2=A0 Think= they have the standard RX7 Hitachi turbo.=C2=A0 Just been around the world= trying to get an affordable=C2=A0 turbo for my renesis which does not exis= t if you talk to drag racers etc.,=C2=A0 Quotes between $4500 and $6500.=C2= =A0 Bought 2 hitachi turbos for $125 and one looks set to go while the othe= r will need bearings.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There was an offer of one in south Africa fo= r freight only.=C2=A0 Would be a bargain.=C2=A0 Just hooking mine up now, b= ut as usual much to go that I have not factored as usual.=C2=A0 Finally fou= nd an intercooler that may fit.

Best,=C2=A0 Neil.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:<= /b> Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@= lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 11:48 AM<= br>To: Rotary motors in aircraft <= flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Turbos f= or 13b's in aircraft

=C2= =A0

Does anyone out there have= any recommendations for a turbo (brand and size) for a 13b in an aircraft?= 300-400 hp range. Reasons or experience is appreciated! Auto racers have t= heir needs but are different from aircraft... or so I've heard. My 13b&= #39;s are nearing the decision stage for turbos. Thanks, James Whitehurst


=C2=A0

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