X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=3W+P1/uuTVQes7LsJ5/gAg==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=eKhGbfrDAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=jgude68Ye6Wnsw2Yn50A:9 a=SXndJMQs67hiFDYw:21 a=y44_JcUeuJmrfTma:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=26tVntT-0Cu4ugGvDQMA:9 a=Wcg6IRkj6SGsS3t7:21 a=jg55bB6T72s02Bfe:21 a=lo7sEDYqicDnUmDe:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=UDUmxsVa2tvOjJGaeGiU:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lf1-f48.google.com ([209.85.167.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 507923 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 09 Jul 2020 02:30:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.167.48; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lf1-f48.google.com with SMTP id g139so495673lfd.10 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 23:30:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fHYQ34Lz0uJQRHKuUzB43NWeFaN4XnuhsL90aZZTqW4=; b=eekIYb5iTtiZg4bkf6uaS2kfGFmDI3n0855xnrhZLtehMKc5dcFPovMmmKNLSPAD15 ghg6tc7XT2hNptBG4+pKmBGtnzJLsjKY5anF8ut4XGjBFkgiSK2/LabxkaiqaH8KmYuY /MXaQMwbyy9WPr05Na7eUEkIiT9ZUQ/+6lBT8hnxJqrTm6lnFJjp+aF6az/TkiZjXXF5 pXWv8i24qboyENOVn0QmAelUYhCYZ+mtekj37Bt8GK8MmAv59VyWnM2ydWxXNBDHJYGG /FBbsaqRSYPGJVs2SoeCk+N3SwH4EFRp/Yeq6R67F926UcGkpgKlsmN8pJZ4SZtOzDZl 3Tmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fHYQ34Lz0uJQRHKuUzB43NWeFaN4XnuhsL90aZZTqW4=; b=meCnJkzruzsVjpLaE7ezTx9OpEBEsl0Fv6ds5RJP8+hj9sptxV1oxr8CwOyrE6cu14 V/uIaYaRpZUDqWygKZNZNOFqeicerofJHPcx0lmYh8OEgxhtE0HgMMlN3j0hSlQbBy/R 1eyCPzjy4voHUNsO2doT4HdtOnVqV9t4gZRgryXrFelAXCrFyzOFDnxfVbQRWkG2Im81 cbOGeZ78cB2NJ2C+25E4OUAd6PO/O0rCcJyjhISOQOhhLOVuhU7UovS8AXChNHbuRUdV RqOIIejcHAwvnh2rVREiTFwoejHrhqTNnAz88IgCBzGTUeFXTvJBN5eXpEhs7u2dWInw fw5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KXzYen8aAZXqcujgMcgJRL7s+2GiL560ftYrsZqm9DubX3reV aRiel0FAqem9aFnX8AcO9mTlHg5FzCDTjUs/yYsAhQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJybI0DrDc2URLeprnl4j8McXwnwCSNXulB2lZP6mvpIPfBUrK+tpK9hwWOMmJvX/ATmSsX0c0iznOAm6imdUfM= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4829:: with SMTP id 9mr38669109lft.41.1594276223635; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 23:30:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 01:27:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fbd59e05a9fc5b22" --000000000000fbd59e05a9fc5b22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le Roux, Thanks for digging this up as it will answer a lot of questions from the group..........This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side housing / accessory drive that was headed for US & European certification.........It incorporated the *"30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears"* for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is what this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting to come up with a less expensive version of this plate but without all the accessory drives and using the stock RX 8 front cover with stock water pump and ignition pickup (electric airplanes)............Photos are worth a thousand words.......... Thanks Again, Kelly troyer On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenbach breytenbachleroux@gmail.com wrote: > Kelly : Just saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in Apri= l > 2011 > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-02-B/MISTR= AL_%20FINAL%20BACKPLATE%20VERSION.jpg > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTR= AL_FINAL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg > > > > > Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regarding the Mistral > mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafocal set up and > mounting > Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasair 111 > > https://www.kitplanes.com/mistral-magic/ > > Le Roux > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > >> Dave & Charlie, >> >> Only the early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used the bolt on fron= t >> cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the >> Lycoming O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I know this >> as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy housings.........I >> have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized part alloy "P por= t" >> 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron front (Rear in tractor A/= C) >> side housing because I was not comfortable having my engine hang on its >> mounts from a housing attached only by several 6 mm bolts threaded into = a >> cast alloy "Racing Beat" front side housing.........All the other >> housings (Center & Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest >> "Mistral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had moun= t >> points at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) a= nd >> only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the >> engine.........At that point in "Mistral's" engine development the engin= es >> they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda" engines and all their >> parts >> were directly adaptable to a stock "Mazda" engine (such as my >> engine)............The last iteration of their engines were designed to = be >> certifiable so they had to have a verifiable manufacturing >> trail..........So they made >> engineering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock >> "Mazda" parts that were not needed or were improvements for aircraft >> use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that w= ere >> not >> adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........Long winded but perhaps >> will enlighten some about the "Mistral" series of engines.......... >> >> Best, >> Kelly Troyer >> >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer wrote: >> >>> Charlie and Mark, >>> Yes Charlie the accessory "iron" side housing is what would be >>> replaced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that repli= cate >>> the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric >>> shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerlin= e >>> and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using the O/IO 540 30 degr= ee >>> "Dyna1" mount system............. >>> >>> Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using the rear >>> dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the need fo= r >>> .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump to >>> further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember that the >>> O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ to ove= r >>> 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and >>> that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be much >>> lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20B used al= loy >>> housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have never >>> heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm studs in any of their >>> engines..........This is probably a question that will have to be prove= n >>> one way or another in actual use..........IMHO >>> Best >>> Kelly Troyer >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < >>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>> >>>> Wonder why Mistral used dynafocal type mounting on their 13b and 20b >>>> designs? >>>> M >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Jul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> Kelly, >>>> The "dynafocal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not >>>> worked out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot= and >>>> cold side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is n= o way >>>> to eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work"= and >>>> move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is not >>>> recommended with the rotary. If you were to do this anyway I wouldn't= do >>>> it without a stud kit. You will have better results using a bed mount.= YMMV >>>> Bill Jepson >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < >>>> flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **ca= pability >>>>> to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side** Housing >>>>> machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that **would allow these >>>>> engines* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) a= s >>>>> used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/I= O 540 >>>>> engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage an= d at >>>>> thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in = this >>>>> product if and when it is * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *produced...........I personally am interested this side >>>>> plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable = of >>>>> trulyamazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo >>>>> boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lan= cair's >>>>> that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in >>>>> engine...........The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are >>>>> producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engi= nes >>>>> that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There ar= e >>>>> turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good >>>>> reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing >>>>> hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there may be in thi= s >>>>> product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro= or >>>>> con..............* >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kelly Troyer >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> --000000000000fbd59e05a9fc5b22 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Le Roux,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for dig= ging=C2=A0this up as it will answer a lot of questions from the group......= ....This was the final iteration of "Mistrals" alloy side housing= / accessory drive
that was headed for US & European certific= ation.........It incorporated the "30 Degree/#1 Dyna Mount Ears&quo= t; for the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine mount..........This is
wh= at this thread is all about..........My friend is attempting=C2=A0to come u= p with a less expensive version of this=C2=A0plate but without all the acce= ssory=C2=A0drives and using the
stock RX 8 front cover with stock= water pump and ignition pickup (electric airplanes)............Photos are = worth a thousand words..........
Thanks Again,
Kelly tr= oyer=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:24 AM Le Roux Breytenba= ch breyten= bachleroux@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Kelly : Just= saw this on the archive on our group thread you post in April 2011

= =C2=A0 http= ://mail.lancaironline.net:81/Lists/flyrotary/Message/54713-03-B/MISTRAL_FIN= AL%20RearPlate_drawing%20(Large).jpg=C2=A0=C2=A0



Dating back to April 2011 that you have post regar= ding the Mistral mounting here you post some photos of the Mistral dynafoca= l set up and mounting
Here is the article of Paul Janssens Glasai= r 111


Le Roux

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Thu, Jul= 9, 2020 at 6:35 AM Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
=C2=A0 Dave & Charlie,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Only the= early "Mistral" 13B/20B based engines used=C2=A0the bolt on fron= t cover/accessory drive alloy cover that had mount points that used the Lyc= oming=C2=A0O/IO 320-360 "Dynafocal Type 1" mount ring.........I k= now this
as fact as I am the proud owner of one of these alloy ho= usings.........I have all the housings and parts to build a bastardized par= t alloy "P port" 13BREW engine.........I retained the cast iron f= ront (Rear in tractor A/C)=C2=A0
side housing because I was not c= omfortable having my engine hang on its mounts from a housing attached only= by several 6 mm bolts threaded=C2=A0into a cast alloy "Racing Beat&qu= ot; front side housing.........All the other
housings (Center &am= p; Rear) are alloy "Racing Beat"..........The earliest "Mist= ral" 20B engines also used this alloy front cover but also had mount p= oints at the redrive end of the engine (Essentially a Bed type Mount) and
only used the bottom two mount points on the accessory end of the = engine.........At that=C2=A0point in "Mistral's" engine devel= opment the engines they sold to experimenters were basically "Mazda&qu= ot; engines and all their parts
were directly adaptable to a stoc= k "Mazda" engine (such as my engine)............The last iteratio= n of their engines were designed=C2=A0to be certifiable so they had to have= a verifiable=C2=A0manufacturing trail..........So they made
engi= neering changes in their parts to eliminate things about the stock "Ma= zda" parts that were=C2=A0not needed or were improvements for aircraft= use..........Most of the last versions of their engines had parts that wer= e not
adaptable to the stock "Mazda" engines...........= Long winded but perhaps will enlighten some about the "Mistral" s= eries of engines..........

Best,
Kelly T= royer=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM Kelly Troyer <keltro@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Charlie and Mark,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes Charlie = the accessory=C2=A0"iron"=C2=A0side housing is what would be repl= aced with an aluminum housing with built in mount points that replicate the= Lycoming O/IO 540 mount ears and locate the Mazda eccentric=C2=A0
shaft centerline in the same place as the Lycoming crankshaft centerline = and make the Mazda a bolt in to any aircraft using=C2=A0the O/IO 540 30 deg= ree "Dyna1" mount system.............

= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark I am well aware of the different opinions on using= the rear dyna focal mount on the Mazda.........Bill is correct about the n= eed for .500 in/12.5mm studs and a stiffening plate and/or rigid oil sump t= o
further resistance to torsional twisting..........But remember = that the O/IO 540 family of engines with firewall forward weights of 400+ t= o over 500 lbs for some turbo models are all using this mount system and
that an all alloy 13B or 20B (even with reduction drive) will be mu= ch lighter..........I do not believe that the "Mistral" 13B or 20= B used alloy housings for other than the front accessory housing and I have= never=C2=A0
heard if they used the oversize .550 inch/12.5 mm st= uds in any of their engines..........This is probably a question that will = have to be proven one way or another in actual use..........IMHO
= Best
Kelly Troyer

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 5:49 PM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net<= /a> <fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Wonder why Mistral used dynafoca= l type mounting on their 13b and 20b designs?
M

Sent from my iPad

On J= ul 8, 2020, at 12:11 PM, William Jepson wrjjrs@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote= :

=EF= =BB=BF
Kelly,
The "dyna= focal" type mount has been tried on the rotary but has not work= ed out well..One of the obvious rotary traits is that it has a hot and cold= side. Various methods have been used to limit this but there is no way to = eliminate it completely. Because of this the engine tends to "work&quo= t; and move around on the studs. Using the engine as a stressed member is n= ot recommended with the rotary. If=C2=A0 you were to do this anyway I would= n't do it without a stud kit. You will have better results=C2=A0using a= bed mount. YMMV
Bill Jepson

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:18 AM = Kelly Troyer keltro@g= mail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturin= g=C2=A0capability to produce an= =C2=A0Aviation Speci= fic 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0= Housing machined from 7075-T6=C2=A0with mount points that= =C2=A0would allow these engines
<= br>to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree numb= er 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that us= e the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the prelimina= ry design stage and at this

point I am a go between to see if there = would be any interest in this product if and when it is=C2=A0produced...........I personally am interested= this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are cap= able of truly

amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turb= o boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lan= cair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in en= gine...........

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs"= ; and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo L= ycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp..= .........There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto r= acing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not = even breathing hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest th= ere may be in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any= comments pro or con..............=C2=A0=C2=A0

--
Kelly Troyer

<= /div>





=
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