X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=G2TurPKJgwUaKOYoOgSX4A==:117 a=MdSQJeINDwMNEIE/9bxyGw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=GBZKE_NBAAAA:8 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=P4LD0BEsFeaXgZ_pjasA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=ar8Ekla3Yfg6rybh0M4A:9 a=0itX1u6eYWn4_FxB:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=kZBJ7nflOVY83HLdyZAa:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 a=pHzHmUro8NiASowvMSCR:22 a=nt3jZW36AmriUCFCBwmW:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-qk1-f171.google.com ([209.85.222.171] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 506620 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 17:24:33 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.222.171; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-qk1-f171.google.com with SMTP id e13so43065732qkg.5 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 14:24:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=+/KuHuBcN9BPQ++9wLVT1dbF7e+2Nd/QtXWC5aRY5Co=; b=KkueyWEC/MvW2C7wURLe/zJ3+Qdp0aEU9CtghunM/X4sqgiiVNTGzrDKi446DUSHHu 4xtKw2n7X22E3AsqIy4FJrCGqTQ0L3JBAkdcVO/Fc13tdIFE5a5EEvS9zgttte2zwJc+ GfP6NvXIGN32n0Lj2GZyKgohobWohjydAgqEwZS+PjBDsApTRIYFxxCBwGcXWF5+nEie aeOi/DwImMzCkTx8cfssURsypLpfdaxNv+iQpLcA0W1FHQ0r04+YuNc5OkFkeBD269Eq Phxk0LgE6sWIg8kjrN+KXVm2Gbs8hcZCs5L6Xomy+0bruk3E94azP6sJZgi/lmua1nPo ZryQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=+/KuHuBcN9BPQ++9wLVT1dbF7e+2Nd/QtXWC5aRY5Co=; b=C06gAKZ4hMsZKf9HLWywKNALglLYnYebMYdtmftsuu43s+KAYRBEsImJOg09Zj7fwd YHit3e2m2DchdhlUfJzYm3z99NuMSIoCphYboj3ukS4zLYcx1cuGudB3XTAA8ff4LbCI QSRFT8PGXhpAiqn7MJgNOG+3WW58gox8siVhU68lNZUR7l+tTpFbXyj2dOHCFxoC228i S7fQS3DoS4MClegpZJrVVWM/1yDyBSQkTmtksTu8oDKeSyKG8Q26zJa/ZmLyANVvN+0i e8aM+XdYJXzJxiQhHES38yhYY1seh4dAkuyuzdHXYoAVeAv978W41JzydldKAVN71du8 AEzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uxsDO1f3pF9WFQBv9SCz3LfqtgX05sjQ3/n6zJAHpO+Do/gP1 3L58BbDNxtTuhWHD6ihA83RCbq6P X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxYFpUz7W2Wv5AIQjmm2yQ8lws4jRyByO/FlFkrZm5raORP/hpP2hEVGsCqLScbYGnWMjkuGQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:a3c8:: with SMTP id m191mr56428118qke.124.1594243457518; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 14:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from [192.168.10.245] (mobile-166-170-59-101.mycingular.net. [166.170.59.101]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u20sm1145599qtj.39.2020.07.08.14.24.14 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Jul 2020 14:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <42faa945-0d9d-fbe3-aef4-f18a8d816be2@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 16:24:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------748D6E5433FDFD3FEC7A81C9" Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200708-4, 07/08/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------748D6E5433FDFD3FEC7A81C9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Kelly, To be sure everyone's on the same page... I'm assuming that you're talking about replacing the accessory end *iron*; not the actual rotor housing, right? Rotary terms seem to get muddied up a lot, with the aluminum trochoid  housings sometimes called 'side housings' and the irons being 'end' and 'center' housings. Charlie On 7/8/2020 3:54 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote: > Lynn, >    The engine would not be supported by the front cover but by mount > points matching the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount "Ears" actually built into > the front side housing much like the final version of "Mistrals" > 13B/20B engines..........There is (or was) a "Glasair 3" in Europe > flying with one of "Mistrals" 20B based engines using this mount > method.........This airplane was featured several years ago in "KitPlane" > magazine in three successive monthly issues........... > > Best > Kelly troyer > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:08 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com > > wrote: > > I note that Mazda moved from a front cover mounted motor mount, to > side motor mounts located on the center iron housing. In racing > the studs in the front cover kept deforming the holes and coming > loose. I drilled the stud holes oversize. Put in larger diameter > studs clear through the cover. I drilled through the studs at 90 > degrees and pinned them in place with roll pins. I used red > Locktite on the threads. All inside the front cover. > > I cannot imagine supporting the engine by the front cover alone. I > have seen a thick plate along the bottom between the oil pan and > engine. Just like a Continental bed mount.  The flywheel end of > that plate bolts to the more common mount bolted on using the bell > housing bolt holes and has the two Lord mounts just as in a > Bonanza. One Lord mount is in constant tension and should have a > mechanical means to retain the height of the mount should there be > a failure. The opposing Lord mount is in constant compression and > is less likely to fail. The fire wall end would have an extension > so as to have space for a vertical "V" shaped strut to control up > and down location of the engine. That strut would be adjustable so > as to control pitch angle. > > I would research as to how the drag racers hold onto their > engines. The bottom half of the engine is hot and the top is cold, > so they tend to want to curve up. The plate idea could help > control this. > > But I could be completely wrong.....Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 7/8/2020 1:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net > writes: > > Mark and All Interested, > >          Let me clear up the questions about this side plate > housing.........First it is only the front hsg (firewall side > in a/c)..........All the other cast iron hsgs are available in > aluminum from sources such as "Racing Beat" > in the US and several other suppliers in Canada , Australia & > New Zealand if an all alloy engine is desired.........To > answer your question Mark this hsg mimics the last iteration > of the "Mistral" engines mount method > but hopefully not as complicated or expensive........Remember > "Mistral" was building engines to be certified and we are > "Experimental"............. > >          Currently the plan is for the hsg to have intake > ports like the 13B/20B (or no ports if "P" port is > desired).........Plan at present is to use the RX-8 , > 2004-2008 Renesis front cover and waterpump.........It has been > ascertained that this front cover will fit in the confines of > the O/IO 540 Lycoming mount ring by removing the alternator > mount boss (on top of the housing) and relocating the > alternator..........The oil pump would remain > stock.........The early 13B/20B front covers could be used > with only different bolt spacing on the various covers but the > water pump hsgs of the early 13B/20B are > problematic..........Mark Steitle of this group adapted the > RX8 water pump to his 20B by cutting the pump hsg from the RX8 > cover and bolting to his engine..........The Rx8 cover has > provision for a stock crank angle sensor........Hope this > answers some of your questions and > I will be happy to answer any others that you may have........... > >        On a personal note I think that if there is someone out > there with the drive and financial means that a killer "Sport > Class" race plane utilizing an all alloy , boosted 20B with a > realistic 1000 hp available is possible > but it would take dedication and money.........That said for > those of us that do not live at that level a more modest RV10 > , Glasair or Lancair with up to a 300 hp 20B is doable and > more important affordable........IMHO > > Best, > Kelly Troyer > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:40 AM Marcus Wiese > cardmarc@charter.net > > wrote: > > ? The automotive front becomes aircraft rear; Tranny side > becomes PSRU, so you are right about the starter location, > that is on ‘rear’ automotive housing, my bad. > I’m guessing oil pump, water pump, alt, crank angle pickup > (20b uses old style distributor while 13brew TT uses crank > angle sensors), other subtle changes for brackets, etc? A > la Mistral mount? > M > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Charlie England > ceengland7@gmail.com > > wrote: > > I think he's talking about the other end. > > Sent from BlueMail > On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:04 AM, "Marcus Wiese > cardmarc@charter.net " > > wrote: > > I would be interested in 2 or 3 of them. What > ‘features’ would it have? Would it use the > standard AT bolt pattern for the AT reduction > starter, etc? All 20bs were AT, as were many 13b > rew TT and Cosmo engines (which I concentrate on) > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 3:17 AM, Kelly Troyer > keltro@gmail.com > > wrote: > > *I am in contact with a person with the design > and manufacturing **capability to produce an > **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front > Side** Housing machined from 7075-T6**with > mount points that **would allow these engines* > > *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 > degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" > RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming > O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in > the preliminary design stage and at this > > point I am a go between to see if there would > be any interest in this product if and when it > is **produced...........I personally am > interested this side plate........As we on > this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable > of truly > > amazing power levels both naturally aspirated > and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make > the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that > use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp > almost bolt in engine........... > > The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and > Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds > using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that > are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 > hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling > > 1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good > reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp > is not even breathing hard.........IMHO > > Would like to hear what interest there may be > in this product if and when it may be > produced............Or any comments pro or > con..............* > > -- > Kelly Troyer > > > > > > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --------------748D6E5433FDFD3FEC7A81C9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hey Kelly,

To be sure everyone's on the same page...

I'm assuming that you're talking about replacing the accessory end *iron*; not the actual rotor housing, right? Rotary terms seem to get muddied up a lot, with the aluminum trochoid  housings sometimes called 'side housings' and the irons being 'end' and 'center' housings.

Charlie

On 7/8/2020 3:54 PM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com wrote:
Lynn,
   The engine would not be supported by the front cover but by mount points matching the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount "Ears" actually built into the front side housing much like the final version of "Mistrals"
13B/20B engines..........There is (or was) a "Glasair 3" in Europe flying with one of "Mistrals" 20B based engines using this mount method.........This airplane was featured several years ago in "KitPlane" 
magazine in three successive monthly issues...........

Best
Kelly troyer

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:08 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I note that Mazda moved from a front cover mounted motor mount, to side motor mounts located on the center iron housing. In racing the studs in the front cover kept deforming the holes and coming loose. I drilled the stud holes oversize. Put in larger diameter studs clear through the cover. I drilled through the studs at 90 degrees and pinned them in place with roll pins. I used red Locktite on the threads. All inside the front cover.

I cannot imagine supporting the engine by the front cover alone. I have seen a thick plate along the bottom between the oil pan and engine. Just like a Continental bed mount.  The flywheel end of that plate bolts to the more common mount bolted on using the bell housing bolt holes and has the two Lord  mounts just as in a Bonanza. One Lord mount is in constant tension and should have a mechanical means to retain the height of the mount should there be a failure. The opposing Lord mount is in constant compression and is less likely to fail. The fire wall end would have an extension so as to have space for a vertical "V" shaped strut to control up and down location of the engine. That strut would be adjustable so as to control pitch angle.

I would research as to how the drag racers hold onto their engines. The bottom half of the engine is hot and the top is cold, so they tend to want to curve up. The plate idea could help control this.

But I could be completely wrong.....Lynn E. Hanover 

In a message dated 7/8/2020 1:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Mark and All Interested,

         Let me clear up the questions about this side plate housing.........First it is only the front hsg (firewall side in a/c)..........All the other cast iron hsgs are available in aluminum from sources such as "Racing Beat"
in the US and several other suppliers in Canada , Australia & New Zealand if an all alloy engine is desired.........To answer your question Mark this hsg mimics the last iteration of the "Mistral" engines mount method
but hopefully not as complicated or expensive........Remember "Mistral" was building engines to be certified and we are "Experimental".............

         Currently the plan is for the hsg to have intake ports like the 13B/20B (or no ports if "P" port is desired).........Plan at present is to use the RX-8 , 2004-2008 Renesis front cover and waterpump.........It has been
ascertained that this front cover will fit in the confines of the O/IO 540 Lycoming mount ring by removing the alternator mount boss (on top of the housing) and relocating the alternator..........The oil pump would remain
stock.........The early 13B/20B front covers could be used with only different bolt spacing on the various covers but the water pump hsgs of the early 13B/20B are problematic..........Mark Steitle of this group adapted the
RX8 water pump to his 20B by cutting the pump hsg from the RX8 cover and bolting to his engine..........The Rx8 cover has provision for a stock crank angle sensor........Hope this answers some of your questions and
I will be happy to answer any others that you may have...........

       On a personal note I think that if there is someone out there with the drive and financial means that a killer "Sport Class" race plane utilizing an all alloy , boosted 20B with a realistic 1000 hp available is possible
but it would take dedication and money.........That said for those of us that do not live at that level a more modest RV10 , Glasair or Lancair with up to a 300 hp 20B is doable and more important affordable........IMHO

Best,
Kelly Troyer   

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:40 AM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
? The automotive front becomes aircraft rear; Tranny side becomes PSRU, so you are right about the starter location, that is on ‘rear’ automotive housing, my bad. 
I’m guessing oil pump, water pump, alt, crank angle pickup (20b uses old style distributor while 13brew TT uses crank angle sensors), other subtle changes for brackets, etc? A la Mistral mount?
M

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I think he's talking about the other end.

Sent from BlueMail
On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:04 AM, "Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
I would be interested in 2 or 3 of them. What ‘features’ would it have? Would it use the standard AT bolt pattern for the AT reduction starter, etc? All 20bs were AT, as were many 13b rew TT and Cosmo engines (which I concentrate on)
Marc

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2020, at 3:17 AM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing capability to produce an Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing machined from 7075-T6 with mount points that would allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at this

point I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this product if and when it is produced...........I personally am interested this side plate........As we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly

amazing power levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........

The "Reno" Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling

1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO

Would like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............  

--
Kelly Troyer








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