X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=PbaBeRpd c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=uiWFakvDa7lx8AkR5Wbrfw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=JZygid9Izu4A:10 a=_RQrkK6FrEwA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=GBZKE_NBAAAA:8 a=PKcFg8PLiKux4wrvkogA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=NWVoK91CQyQA:10 a=qnwHmHPYhI6YDGaihikA:9 a=fRGoySiaa4kNHP_o:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=GyA-uvUxXSCciAkwuKQO:22 a=kZBJ7nflOVY83HLdyZAa:22 From: "Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com" Received: from mail-lj1-f173.google.com ([209.85.208.173] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.14) with ESMTPS id 506571 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 16:57:35 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.208.173; envelope-from=keltro@gmail.com Received: by mail-lj1-f173.google.com with SMTP id d17so41092698ljl.3 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:57:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MDeiW8IBF6mXD3cDSVmi4UXAg4ki0ZIbUi0nEku0A8w=; b=KFvqf/SxJlBGP5NFCLSJg4bBuCny0EVQow3BQE1sp/w7t9DgOTeh3gDN0Vu0lyG9yP Zlb+DMqkiZ395pUtc2Al4frdBhmu8mwvVtYltt9zSOnVSQ0wijwYnLb94PL6YG+w8m4r maC6fe5pA82cZt4P3gP1YlTjZgzzJQxKRD73+dBlcQOE7/+wwMhwPme/JNMRnIa0jRJK xViDTkC21O/85X0KoFQvfntnRk8Y4Fgi5NXbSJf3G+rgNgL9gg8P6ApYeoP14q96rexV HqBGTvYzsmdf5jXHYH/dlIKOt2LT6HC7sSkeMQI7G6clo8RZymRoTi1WCouvYb/nyRFn VeEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MDeiW8IBF6mXD3cDSVmi4UXAg4ki0ZIbUi0nEku0A8w=; b=Dn6QZgGbfOeeP2p+h0kYTKK/37baUhdR8S1MM6HT8usojZuqLrqd/J3R7VAJnbzbab qebA+meYjbUrDEtckYt9tuH2H0vQzwd/6teIaeaqxIWyOR5VFOS95ddVs+f4ta51cH6M LF8OE9FSI7PEVedK4tJlnZc/kV+RkK0vtmF1P4GSckgoTSi1EwyrAGmJE7gwNkq1MI0R sY5DuHG3tZA5bqkTSVOyEvOpEIyClr7FF9u1YCmNPvWqMjaUgcnXTvXAAyq0Y4P9TqvG J7mrsFH/iGEEVw+KfkQRMOYB9e4nZx3DGaP2y9PPdVmSQR0eMWCPs6zWjjtNrQtjn8E8 ZNrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qEHwkxvnB/i8E/VexyEuY3QgoNBlHkV0qMTK3RuIDRe51z8Bk Exf1lg5DkScI7EopEsmdk+HXY9t/Gzko+uKxQ9xnJg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwG1TMz6OV1LWggs+rt4thQeSUCbYSR7Uti8DNhdQSBxaa0sYk2N8kq2QXngl4XZ/wgC8gnRYqIQL76pLf2Njw= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8043:: with SMTP id p3mr29101278ljg.469.1594241837926; Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:57:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:54:50 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side Housing To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006f8cf305a9f45aeb" --0000000000006f8cf305a9f45aeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, The engine would not be supported by the front cover but by mount points matching the Lycoming O/IO 540 mount "Ears" actually built into the front side housing much like the final version of "Mistrals" 13B/20B engines..........There is (or was) a "Glasair 3" in Europe flying with one of "Mistrals" 20B based engines using this mount method.........This airplane was featured several years ago in "KitPlane" magazine in three successive monthly issues........... Best Kelly troyer On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 3:08 PM lehanover lehanover@aol.com < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > I note that Mazda moved from a front cover mounted motor mount, to side > motor mounts located on the center iron housing. In racing the studs in t= he > front cover kept deforming the holes and coming loose. I drilled the stud > holes oversize. Put in larger diameter studs clear through the cover. I > drilled through the studs at 90 degrees and pinned them in place with rol= l > pins. I used red Locktite on the threads. All inside the front cover. > > I cannot imagine supporting the engine by the front cover alone. I have > seen a thick plate along the bottom between the oil pan and engine. Just > like a Continental bed mount. The flywheel end of that plate bolts to th= e > more common mount bolted on using the bell housing bolt holes and has the > two Lord mounts just as in a Bonanza. One Lord mount is in constant > tension and should have a mechanical means to retain the height of the > mount should there be a failure. The opposing Lord mount is in constant > compression and is less likely to fail. The fire wall end would have an > extension so as to have space for a vertical "V" shaped strut to control = up > and down location of the engine. That strut would be adjustable so as to > control pitch angle. > > I would research as to how the drag racers hold onto their engines. The > bottom half of the engine is hot and the top is cold, so they tend to wan= t > to curve up. The plate idea could help control this. > > But I could be completely wrong.....Lynn E. Hanover > > In a message dated 7/8/2020 1:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, > flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: > > Mark and All Interested, > > Let me clear up the questions about this side plate > housing.........First it is only the front hsg (firewall side in > a/c)..........All the other cast iron hsgs are available in aluminum from > sources such as "Racing Beat" > in the US and several other suppliers in Canada , Australia & New Zealand > if an all alloy engine is desired.........To answer your question Mark th= is > hsg mimics the last iteration of the "Mistral" engines mount method > but hopefully not as complicated or expensive........Remember "Mistral" > was building engines to be certified and we are "Experimental"...........= .. > > Currently the plan is for the hsg to have intake ports like the > 13B/20B (or no ports if "P" port is desired).........Plan at present is t= o > use the RX-8 , 2004-2008 Renesis front cover and waterpump.........It has > been > ascertained that this front cover will fit in the confines of the O/IO 54= 0 > Lycoming mount ring by removing the alternator mount boss (on top of the > housing) and relocating the alternator..........The oil pump would remain > stock.........The early 13B/20B front covers could be used with only > different bolt spacing on the various covers but the water pump hsgs of t= he > early 13B/20B are problematic..........Mark Steitle of this group adapted > the > RX8 water pump to his 20B by cutting the pump hsg from the RX8 cover and > bolting to his engine..........The Rx8 cover has provision for a stock > crank angle sensor........Hope this answers some of your questions and > I will be happy to answer any others that you may have........... > > On a personal note I think that if there is someone out there with > the drive and financial means that a killer "Sport Class" race plane > utilizing an all alloy , boosted 20B with a realistic 1000 hp available i= s > possible > but it would take dedication and money.........That said for those of us > that do not live at that level a more modest RV10 , Glasair or Lancair wi= th > up to a 300 hp 20B is doable and more important affordable........IMHO > > Best, > Kelly Troyer > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:40 AM Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > ? The automotive front becomes aircraft rear; Tranny side becomes PSRU, s= o > you are right about the starter location, that is on =E2=80=98rear=E2=80= =99 automotive > housing, my bad. > I=E2=80=99m guessing oil pump, water pump, alt, crank angle pickup (20b u= ses old > style distributor while 13brew TT uses crank angle sensors), other subtle > changes for brackets, etc? A la Mistral mount? > M > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:31 AM, Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I think he's talking about the other end. > > Sent from BlueMail > On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:04 AM, "Marcus Wiese cardmarc@charter.net" < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I would be interested in 2 or 3 of them. What =E2=80=98features=E2=80=99 = would it have? > Would it use the standard AT bolt pattern for the AT reduction starter, > etc? All 20bs were AT, as were many 13b rew TT and Cosmo engines (which I > concentrate on) > Marc > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 8, 2020, at 3:17 AM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.com < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > *I am in contact with a person with the design and manufacturing **capabi= lity > to produce an **Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side** Housing > machined from 7075-T6* *with mount points that **would allow these > engines* > > > > *to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as > used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming O/IO 54= 0 > engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stage and at > thispoint I am a go between to see if there would be any interest in this > product if and when it is * > > > > > > > > *produced...........I personally am interested this side plate........As > we on this forum know both the 13B / 20B are capable of trulyamazing powe= r > levels both naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would > make the Van's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO > 540 an easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........The "Reno" Sport Clas= s > "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 400 mph speeds using dual > turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual hand grenades pulling over > 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling1200 hp out in the auto > racing world with good reliability..........A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is n= ot > even breathing hard.........IMHOWould like to hear what interest there ma= y > be in this product if and when it may be produced............Or any > comments pro or con..............* > > -- > Kelly Troyer > > > > --0000000000006f8cf305a9f45aeb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The engine would not be = supported by the front cover but by mount points matching the Lycoming O/IO= 540 mount "Ears" actually=C2=A0built into the front side housing= much like the final version of "Mistrals"
13B/20B engi= nes..........There is (or was) a "Glasair 3" in Europe flying wit= h one of "Mistrals" 20B based engines using this mount method....= .....This airplane was featured several years ago in "KitPlane"= =C2=A0
magazine in three successive=C2=A0monthly=C2=A0issues.....= ......

Best
Kelly troyer

On Wed, Jul 8, 2= 020 at 3:08 PM lehanover lehanover@aol= .com <flyrotary@lanca= ironline.net> wrote:
I note that Mazda moved from a front cover mounted motor m= ount, to side motor mounts located on the center iron housing. In racing th= e studs in the front cover kept deforming the holes and coming loose. I dri= lled the stud holes oversize. Put in larger diameter studs clear through th= e cover. I drilled through the studs at 90 degrees and pinned them in place= with roll pins. I used red Locktite on the threads. All inside the front c= over.

I cannot imagine supporting the engine by the front cover = alone. I have seen a thick plate along the bottom between the oil pan and e= ngine. Just like a Continental bed mount.=C2=A0 The flywheel end of that pl= ate bolts to the more common mount bolted on using the bell housing bolt ho= les and has the two Lord=C2=A0 mounts just as in a Bonanza. One Lord mount = is in constant tension and should have a mechanical means to retain the hei= ght of the mount should there be a failure. The opposing Lord mount is in c= onstant compression and is less likely to fail. The fire wall end would hav= e an extension so as to have space for a vertical "V" shaped stru= t to control up and down location of the engine. That strut would be adjust= able so as to control pitch angle.

I would research as to how the drag racers hold onto their= engines. The bottom half of the engine is hot and the top is cold, so they= tend to want to curve up. The plate idea could help control this.

But I could be completely wrong.....Lynn E. Hanover=C2=A0<= br>

In a message dated 7/8/2020 1:26:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, flyrotary@lancaironline= .net writes:

Mark and All Interested,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Let me clear up the questions about = this side plate housing.........First it is only the front hsg (firewall si= de in a/c)..........All the other cast iron hsgs are available in aluminum = from sources such as "Racing Beat"
in the US and several other suppliers in Canada , Australia & New = Zealand if an all alloy engine is desired.........To answer your question M= ark this hsg mimics the last iteration of the "Mistral" engines m= ount method
but hopefully not as complicated or expensive........Remember "Mi= stral" was building engines to be certified and we are "Experimen= tal".............

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Currently=C2=A0the plan is for the h= sg to have intake ports like the 13B/20B (or no ports if "P" port= is desired).........Plan at present is to use the RX-8 , 2004-2008 Renesis= front cover and waterpump.........It has been
ascertained that this front cover will fit in the confines of the O/IO= 540 Lycoming mount ring by removing the alternator mount boss (on top of t= he housing) and relocating the alternator..........The oil pump would remai= n
stock.........The early 13B/20B front covers could be used with only d= ifferent=C2=A0bolt spacing on the various covers but the water pump=C2=A0hs= gs of the early 13B/20B are problematic..........Mark Steitle of this group= adapted the
RX8 water pump=C2=A0to his 20B by cutting the pump hsg from=C2=A0the R= X8 cover and bolting to his engine..........The Rx8 cover has provision for= a stock crank angle sensor........Hope this answers some of your questions= and
I will be happy to answer any others that you may have...........

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On a personal note I think that if there is= someone out there with the drive and financial=C2=A0means that a killer &q= uot;Sport Class" race plane utilizing an all alloy , boosted 20B with = a realistic 1000 hp available is possible
but it would take dedication and money.........That said for those of = us that do not live at that level a more modest RV10 , Glasair or Lancair w= ith up to a 300 hp 20B is doable and more important affordable........IMHO<= /div>

Best,
Kelly Troyer=C2=A0 =C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 10:40 AM Marcus Wiese ca= rdmarc@charter.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
? The automotive front becomes aircraft rear; Tranny side becomes PSRU= , so you are right about the starter location, that is on =E2=80=98rear=E2= =80=99 automotive housing, my bad.=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m guessing oil pump, water pump, alt, crank angle pickup (20= b uses old style distributor while 13brew TT uses crank angle sensors), oth= er subtle changes for brackets, etc? A la Mistral mount?
M

Sent from my iPad
I think he's talking about the other end.

Sent from BlueMail
On Jul 8, 2020, at 10:04 AM, "Marcus Wiese cardmarc@ch= arter.net" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net&= gt; wrote:
I would be interested in 2 or 3 of them. What = =E2=80=98features=E2=80=99 would it have? Would it use the standard AT bolt= pattern for the AT reduction starter, etc? All 20bs were AT, as were many = 13b rew TT and Cosmo engines (which I concentrate on)
Marc

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 8, 2020, at 3:17 AM, Kelly Troyer keltro@gmail.co= m <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
<= br>
I am in contact = with a person with the design and manufacturing=C2=A0capabili= ty to produce an=C2=A0Aviation Specific 13B/20B Mazda Front Side=C2=A0Housing machined from 7075-T6<= span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-size:12px;vertical-ali= gn:baseline;color:rgb(17,17,17);background-color:rgb(235,244,249)">=C2=A0with mount points= that=C2=A0<= span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-family:inherit;vertica= l-align:baseline;color:rgb(38,40,42)">would allow these engines

to be a bolt in to the engine mount ring (30 degree number 1 Dyna) as = used by the "Vans" RV-10 and other aircraft that use the Lycoming= O/IO 540 engine..........This side plate is in the preliminary design stag= e and at this

point I am a go between to see if there would be any i= nterest in this product if and when it is=C2=A0produced.....= ......I personally am interested this side plate........As we on this forum= know both the 13B / 20B are capable of truly

amazing power levels b= oth naturally aspirated and turbo boosted.........The 20B would make the Va= n's RV-10 , Glasair 3 or Lancair's that use the Lycoming O/IO 540 a= n easy 300+ hp almost bolt in engine...........

The "Reno"= Sport Class "Glasairs" and Lancairs" are producing almost 4= 00 mph speeds using dual turbo Lycoming IO-550 engines that are virtual han= d grenades pulling over 700 hp...........There are turbo 20B's pulling<= br>
1200 hp out in the auto racing world with good reliability..........= A 20B boosted to 700+ hp is not even breathing hard.........IMHO

Wou= ld like to hear what interest there may be in this product if and when it m= ay be produced............Or any comments pro or con..............= =C2=A0=C2=A0

--
Kelly Troyer






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