X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=PKtNwriC c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=auZFhOzWS5H0Xlzol9Q3ww==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=2ur7OfE09M0A:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=2V2wdJiJU7umY8WJLqcA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=Qa1je4BO31QA:10 a=gvSQh4r-fQ0A:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=g6bUuf1i2agvGHkr18wA:9 a=zuCVkYuvfOhI1TH-:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=grOzbf7U_OpcSX4AJOnl:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com ([209.85.210.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.10) with ESMTPS id 11975595 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 08 Dec 2018 03:47:23 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.182; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id c73so3041151pfe.13 for ; Sat, 08 Dec 2018 00:47:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=Fi1Vz2cnn1ul+hejJUr7fL0GyhjRUhXUAN98OcT8is0=; b=JxBa3X+DBFb6LfP3qhFhFVKh/5JRs+PquuNj6kTauQ7kVMM4E/VzjadSI5sCD7FIuR LUt+oXOOblAVLg/W/TWTrkB8H95cdARZsm7IDYaPjp6R9vefFl876LZuRrG2j7QE0K7I 7danlXebqddxeCEJ99KVKACT6+Ap5bfUMbq+xDaRUkB/E+7MijAw+zxQspPYWYzqmbXf 8mNXAVp2WihJ0yyC81baH7lN0iGxP4vngC6Rd5XR/0p5Yyx3+V6dVsgIi42m4YqNEpEj 6MsH6oGXeQGKjvDF6K7NRvaJetedgMSOVIPAy0DGVEmeoIAWbr34xuD+VELniElz3coX gUhw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=Fi1Vz2cnn1ul+hejJUr7fL0GyhjRUhXUAN98OcT8is0=; b=qLCoAh7PQNV9o0RQG4qMblyFwet42l6bumwXqxP8DZZ8mMlIx1KyUG+7lVW306KcL7 BS7iq71E547HNFATz3OUA9ktP6sQeyswqJMD5Zn7ASZ0n5e3gbJtN+6pzClVuvlkNjue OkRly+mW9Q3v1erERayVN7S7nxD3k0fQSmo8D0ousihLx076GuZ7jRVAgnvWBrfttfgg +Ny5qnQJ8XsGRPdXo1BKkUpiHRNKpmztX4MZo9NTFXZwlgGMMjLup2q6OSfw2jmPWDmI TUHjhi5jgDmDvsDImEB8+Jv0me3UbTq1aqoW67t1b/bh1hGBS9ZOXGNhtPBlybfz4ZHw TGQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWbQUlKxlCjE94Ig428HS+daRaHYQOEew3Ic3AFe5KlwBTKaBYh7 qX2p2tEkkvLHm/raGfBsJt4Uxt62 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/Wq0v6CzTyCGFhtd4ajUrDO0Xja+nLYDOHIUrbcVh2hKBY+reyZ+7GXvRPhZJz0IgG6UInUZA== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e655:: with SMTP id p21mr4519947pgj.70.1544258824277; Sat, 08 Dec 2018 00:47:04 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.103] ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k26sm13254901pgf.65.2018.12.08.00.47.01 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Dec 2018 00:47:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: <3f230d85-1923-5c47-b5df-70f5d925eddc@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 19:46:58 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0EA0A69E0E455FDCFFEF2DCB" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0EA0A69E0E455FDCFFEF2DCB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bobby,                    Yes I have the wide band 02, but when I used the microtech which was the reason I ditched it it was to me impossible to tune properly.  Then Microtech refused to answer phone calls or were gone to a drag race somewhere--- all queries were to be done by internet.  With microtech as I said before the mixture knob did nothing except occupy another hole in the dash. EGTs in excess of 1850 degrees were easily reached. Long story short I left Microtech and bought the fueltech.  Much easier to tune and actually have backup as required.  Did not add an EGT as nothing seemed to change with the microtech, so simply slept better not knowing what the EGT's actually were. Can add EGT to the fueltech but another $1000 AUD.  May have to go that way as intend to get to 8000 RPM if required Today at low 30's degrees my water was on the thermostat at 95 degrees C and oil around 90.  Saw your temps and had a heart attack until I realised you are farenheit. What turbo do you run and have you an intercooler? Will get to check out the ag turbos shortly as there are hundreds of them around here.  Will get to weigh one shortly.   Neil. On 12/5/2018 9:00 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: > > Neil, > > Do you have a wideband O2?  I have to run in the low 11’s at full > power and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48” MP to keep egt’s > around 1600F. Typical cruise between 4800 – 5200 rpm  / <30 “ MP with > F/A 15.8:1 brings EGT’s into the 1500’s. With an intercooler I would > expect F/A in the 12’s will keep egt’s below 1600 but that’s just a > guess. I have seen EGT’s at or below 1475F on cold days at altitude. > The only time I run stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP. > > *Information from Pro Formula Mazda * > > *Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures *Exhaust Gas Temperatures > (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting > channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between > the front and rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings > accompanied by normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be > evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between the rotors > during a long pull – gapping Emphasis needs put on the condition of > the EGTs – low reading sensors are beginning to fail. In order to have > an accurate assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be > replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per rotor. One > sensor bung should be welded on the each the outer exhaust pipes 3” > from the header flange (the center pipe usually does not receive a > sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip of the > sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. *Operational Range: > Front Rotor: 1450F – 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F – 1550F* > > ** > > ** > > *Engine Vitals: Lambda * > > Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. > The value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel > ratio 14.7:1. > > Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value > monitored by data system by 14.7 > > (ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 = )13.23 Air/fuel ratio > > *Operating Range = .87 - .91, aim for .90* > > ** > > ** > > Bobby > > ** > > *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, > > Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 > degrees without losing a lot of power?  I no longer have an EGT as it > just worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt > probes.  From memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 > rpm or less? > > Neil. > > On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have > stayed clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I’ve heard of > using a turbo from the agricultural industry and advice to stay > clear of the automotive type ... seems to make sense – tractors > use turbos that last for decades. > > Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs) > > *From:* > *Sent:* December-03-18 5:14 AM > *Subject:* Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, > > Neil, Type    Turbo selection Into search of flyrotary archives, > you’ll get about 30 posts from 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, > other searches will give more. > > Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R > >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30 > > T04’s are plentiful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractors > from last century. you probably got a few parked up around you > that will still be servicable. If you can find one without a > intercooler on it, chances are that it might have the right > compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change. > > Steer clear of automotive turbo’s, they will overspeed at altitude > & disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats > not required on an aeroplane. > > When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil > supply line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows > its seal. > > Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple > part. > > Andrew > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --------------0EA0A69E0E455FDCFFEF2DCB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Bobby,

                   Yes I have the wide band 02, but when I used the microtech which was the reason I ditched it it was to me impossible to tune properly.  Then Microtech refused to answer phone calls or were gone to a drag race somewhere--- all queries were to be done by internet.  With microtech as I said before the mixture knob did nothing except occupy another hole in the dash.  EGTs in excess of 1850 degrees were easily reached.

Long story short I left Microtech and bought the fueltech.  Much easier to tune and actually have backup as required.  Did not add an EGT as nothing seemed to change with the microtech, so simply slept better not knowing what the EGT's actually were.

Can add EGT to the fueltech but another $1000 AUD.  May have to go that way as intend to get to 8000 RPM if required

Today at low 30's degrees my water was on the thermostat at 95 degrees C and oil around 90.  Saw your temps and had a heart attack until I realised you are farenheit.

What turbo do you run and have you an intercooler?

Will get to check out the ag turbos shortly as there are hundreds of them around here.  Will get to weigh one shortly.

  Neil.

On 12/5/2018 9:00 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:

Neil,

 

Do you have a wideband O2?  I have to run in the low 11’s at full power and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48” MP to keep egt’s around 1600F. Typical cruise between 4800 – 5200 rpm  / <30 “ MP with F/A 15.8:1 brings EGT’s into the 1500’s. With an intercooler I would expect F/A in the 12’s will keep egt’s below 1600 but that’s just a guess. I have seen EGT’s at or below 1475F on cold days at altitude. The only time I run stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP.

 

Information from Pro Formula Mazda

 

Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between the front and rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings accompanied by normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between the rotors during a long pull – gapping Emphasis needs put on the condition of the EGTs – low reading sensors are beginning to fail. In order to have an accurate assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per rotor. One sensor bung should be welded on the each the outer exhaust pipes 3” from the header flange (the center pipe usually does not receive a sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip of the sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. Operational Range: Front Rotor: 1450F – 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F – 1550F

 

 

Engine Vitals: Lambda

Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. The value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio 14.7:1.

Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value monitored by data system by 14.7

(ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 = )13.23 Air/fuel ratio

Operating Range = .87 - .91, aim for .90

 

 

 

Bobby

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 degrees without losing a lot of power?  I no longer have an EGT as it just worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt probes.  From memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 rpm or less? 

Neil.

 

On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:

Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have stayed clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I’ve heard of using a turbo from the agricultural industry and advice to stay clear of the automotive type ... seems to make sense – tractors use turbos that last for decades.

Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs)

 

From:
Sent: December-03-18 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Neil, Type    Turbo selection     Into search of flyrotary archives, you’ll get about 30 posts from 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, other searches will give more.

 

Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30

T04’s are plentiful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractors from last century. you probably got a few parked up around you that will still be servicable. If you can find one without a intercooler on it, chances are that it might have the right compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change.

Steer clear of automotive turbo’s, they will overspeed at altitude & disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats not required on an aeroplane.

 

When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil supply line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows its seal.

 

Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple part.

 

Andrew

 

 


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