X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=PvTRVEE3 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=FuTfBirF9AnEJdX4ERgqMg==:117 a=55z/sxGcUIPVrBMYBb4HRw==:17 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=_Z_nqdSeG58A:10 a=2ur7OfE09M0A:10 a=r77TgQKjGQsHNAKrUKIA:9 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=zbxGaasrYC_JBQ5cafAA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4PR2P7QzAAAA:8 a=g6bUuf1i2agvGHkr18wA:9 a=4zWWALLesOD7grNm:21 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=Fc6xXSS-RxGHxrvp76Qp:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=NPqpj5bUEVj9vR1HIonK:22 a=4dqwQCo7Po2mVW515mGf:22 From: "Neil Unger 12348ung@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pl1-f176.google.com ([209.85.214.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.9) with ESMTPS id 11960013 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 Dec 2018 14:49:43 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.214.176; envelope-from=12348ung@gmail.com Received: by mail-pl1-f176.google.com with SMTP id u18so10557907plq.7 for ; Wed, 05 Dec 2018 11:49:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=uKbUKC56Zdupjq+mjagwJiS83uhJExC4D8GLpvZAh5c=; b=skLzQcavKHWitwLPdafe/kZiB3YtwFnzYurAUjJFWLHoOiFxSP0hvWMUglEDRKgHeW kQvMhJb2wwT8pfH0oJjgfpCx1jYNAY8+kn9sZbXZfQRkU3aCPfaaeM21OT/B/IN63PjQ vKMliBJw/LEWgSEsjU9B0+nJQ0P4xA6XFvovBzLmvF1Tqo/Xp6ysssEnl9//l0R9dGhE HgwDamCn3g0Py9bxyqnn7ZXWnSZxOLZb95SBNWL91BAiJKCkY1r700zzIjZJLJBe1HCZ 00UUp81Zv6S1B4WSs/i7b5l1Li0VwpO0SaVLqVcTFenb1GuH67bFfHQ6GotftAv1W9J4 61OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=uKbUKC56Zdupjq+mjagwJiS83uhJExC4D8GLpvZAh5c=; b=b4ce6WwUIl6pDoItWh2nq0/HKQa1cx8losCspTdjwrPPee0sxZLckHlR2onyAMpbDu 0SpurP5pmPMCJmgh0dTUL61MkgSeijvZlB9xR+dPlJooyiER77XgavIRoT5F0SgVriQC wy2kbEHCkURhN4nKCQraFDFxVYGhlOxrWDpLawfL7HJAEpSwG7DukzrQ0W1hUBYV0ufE 2BQrtwiAjem5XO1lS6mAPz5A0+BUUpkwpKAm6IKw9TyTWJ156IIQSGS66rmgZOus99ub pbmbB/TKSancf8BPQlPhcoDN2YqbLtFer0cbZmczPfzDWhdI5Y8zLjsgoL0ZkivD3dVa DbJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWYeC5xTWxvH9ZWRu0IvdEx/PFxW/gKzTdvWBAsRVv/J99tzqiPI Zwi7FKIz5EUXFxMu0/o+jsxOCVEF X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/U22k8FsLqLvzO1pmWzTd/QFlhvonBB0scpmc9k4dJxupRkbNMARvdIDEyyMctlqWBW4ZYEag== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9a4c:: with SMTP id x12mr24733576plv.94.1544039363864; Wed, 05 Dec 2018 11:49:23 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: <12348ung@gmail.com> Received: from [192.168.0.103] ([103.198.24.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r83sm46640303pfc.115.2018.12.05.11.49.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 05 Dec 2018 11:49:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, To: Rotary motors in aircraft References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2018 06:49:17 +1100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------0DBAECB6A6093EF197ED06FA" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0DBAECB6A6093EF197ED06FA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bobby,                          Do not have a manual mix knob, all computerised according to A/F.  Had one on the microtech but did nothing at all which is probably the reason that Mictotech no longer sells them.  Have spent many months trying to get the engine running well and the A/F seems to be best at between 13 and 12.5.  Any richer and the engine dies.  I am suspicious that I can compare A/F with other gauges as so many factors are taken into account.  As I said before I did not even bother to put in an EGT as there is little I can do other than pull the power to lower the EGT.  The fueltek ECU richens the mix at full power, but without an EGT I have no idea.  All I know is the engine goes very well. Neil. On 12/5/2018 9:30 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote: > > Neil, > > I just remembered you may not have a manual mixture control with your > controller. It may require an overly rich mixture at all times to > manage egt’s. A turbo may not be possible. I believe Motec and > Microtech have the option to incorporate a mixture knob with some % > limits. > > Bobby > > *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 4:00 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, > > Neil, > > Do you have a wideband O2?  I have to run in the low 11’s at full > power and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48” MP to keep egt’s > around 1600F. Typical cruise between 4800 – 5200 rpm  / <30 “ MP with > F/A 15.8:1 brings EGT’s into the 1500’s. With an intercooler I would > expect F/A in the 12’s will keep egt’s below 1600 but that’s just a > guess. I have seen EGT’s at or below 1475F on cold days at altitude. > The only time I run stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP. > > *Information from Pro Formula Mazda * > > *Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures *Exhaust Gas Temperatures > (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting > channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between > the front and rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings > accompanied by normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be > evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between the rotors > during a long pull – gapping Emphasis needs put on the condition of > the EGTs – low reading sensors are beginning to fail. In order to have > an accurate assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be > replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per rotor. One > sensor bung should be welded on the each the outer exhaust pipes 3” > from the header flange (the center pipe usually does not receive a > sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip of the > sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. *Operational Range: > Front Rotor: 1450F – 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F – 1550F* > > ** > > ** > > *Engine Vitals: Lambda * > > Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. > The value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel > ratio 14.7:1. > > Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value > monitored by data system by 14.7 > > (ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 = )13.23 Air/fuel ratio > > *Operating Range = .87 - .91, aim for .90* > > ** > > ** > > Bobby > > ** > > *From:*Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, > > Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 > degrees without losing a lot of power?  I no longer have an EGT as it > just worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt > probes.  From memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 > rpm or less? > > Neil. > > On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have > stayed clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I’ve heard of > using a turbo from the agricultural industry and advice to stay > clear of the automotive type ... seems to make sense – tractors > use turbos that last for decades. > > Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs) > > *From:* > *Sent:* December-03-18 5:14 AM > *Subject:* Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil, > > Neil, Type    Turbo selection Into search of flyrotary archives, > you’ll get about 30 posts from 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, > other searches will give more. > > Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R > >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30 > > T04’s are plentiful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractors > from last century. you probably got a few parked up around you > that will still be servicable. If you can find one without a > intercooler on it, chances are that it might have the right > compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change. > > Steer clear of automotive turbo’s, they will overspeed at altitude > & disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats > not required on an aeroplane. > > When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil > supply line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows > its seal. > > Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple > part. > > Andrew > --------------0DBAECB6A6093EF197ED06FA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Bobby,

                         Do not have a manual mix knob, all computerised according to A/F.  Had one on the microtech but did nothing at all which is probably the reason that Mictotech no longer sells them.  Have spent many months trying to get the engine running well and the A/F seems to be best at between 13 and 12.5.  Any richer and the engine dies.  I am suspicious that I can compare A/F with other gauges as so many factors are taken into account.  As I said before I did not even bother to put in an EGT as there is little I can do other than pull the power to lower the EGT.  The fueltek ECU richens the mix at full power, but without an EGT I have no idea.  All I know is the engine goes very well.

Neil.


On 12/5/2018 9:30 AM, Bobby J. Hughes bhughes@qnsi.net wrote:

Neil,

 

I just remembered you may not have a manual mixture control with your controller. It may require an overly rich mixture at all times to manage egt’s. A turbo may not be possible. I believe Motec and Microtech have the option to incorporate a mixture knob with some % limits.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 4:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Neil,

 

Do you have a wideband O2?  I have to run in the low 11’s at full power and under boost for takeoff. 7000 rpm / 30-48” MP to keep egt’s around 1600F. Typical cruise between 4800 – 5200 rpm  / <30 “ MP with F/A 15.8:1 brings EGT’s into the 1500’s. With an intercooler I would expect F/A in the 12’s will keep egt’s below 1600 but that’s just a guess. I have seen EGT’s at or below 1475F on cold days at altitude. The only time I run stoichiometric is in the pattern and low MP.

 

Information from Pro Formula Mazda

 

Engine Vitals: Exhaust Gas Temperatures Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGTs) are the second most important tuning and troubleshooting channel next to Lambda. EGTs reflect on the injector balance between the front and rear rotor Reflects misfires through high readings accompanied by normal lambda Decline in engine performance can be evidenced by the rate of temperature acceleration between the rotors during a long pull – gapping Emphasis needs put on the condition of the EGTs – low reading sensors are beginning to fail. In order to have an accurate assessment of the performance, EGT sensors must be replaced often. Generally, one EGT sensor is used per rotor. One sensor bung should be welded on the each the outer exhaust pipes 3” from the header flange (the center pipe usually does not receive a sensor). The sensor depth should be enough to where the tip of the sensor is in the centerline of the exhaust flow. Operational Range: Front Rotor: 1450F – 1600F, Rear Rotor: 1400F – 1550F

 

 

Engine Vitals: Lambda

Lambda is the measure of the amount of oxygen in the exhaust stream. The value expressed is a percentage of the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio 14.7:1.

Air/fuel ratio can be calculated by multiplying the lambda value monitored by data system by 14.7

(ex: .90 Lambda translates as (.9 x 14.7 = )13.23 Air/fuel ratio

Operating Range = .87 - .91, aim for .90

 

 

 

Bobby

 

 

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2018 1:30 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Ok, interesting stuff, but how do you keep the exhaust temp below 1600 degrees without losing a lot of power?  I no longer have an EGT as it just worried me with 1800 degrees and the cost of burnt off egt probes.  From memory 1600 degrees goes out the window at about 6000 rpm or less? 

Neil.

 

On 12/4/2018 2:30 AM, Jeff Whaley jwhaley@datacast.com wrote:

Hi Andrew, I know next to nothing about turbo technology so have stayed clear of them; IIRC this is the first time I’ve heard of using a turbo from the agricultural industry and advice to stay clear of the automotive type ... seems to make sense – tractors use turbos that last for decades.

Jeff (13B, RD1-C, 144 hrs)

 

From:
Sent: December-03-18 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hey Neil,

 

Neil, Type    Turbo selection     Into search of flyrotary archives, you’ll get about 30 posts from 2002 to 13 that are worth reading, other searches will give more.

 

Basically you want something the size of a T04 60-1, keep the A/R >1, something like 1.15 or 1.30

T04’s are plentiful from all the older diesels like 2wd tractors from last century. you probably got a few parked up around you that will still be servicable. If you can find one without a intercooler on it, chances are that it might have the right compressor. Otherwise they are easy to change.

Steer clear of automotive turbo’s, they will overspeed at altitude & disintegrate, need waste gates & blow off valves. Stuff thats not required on an aeroplane.

 

When installing. Put a normally open solonoid valve in the oil supply line. Allows you to close the oil supply if the turbo blows its seal.

 

Always bugged me why turbo shops charge so much for such a simple part.

 

Andrew

 

 


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