X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=UschDK4B c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=kdGfU+lv7xr5jxdcg3m1Bw==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=A-0mRrAPPO4A:10 a=JHtHm7312UAA:10 a=o2QoyYduAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=y1BBXd_fAAAA:8 a=6wpA4Fq-AAAA:8 a=Kcj-Rs2npeSFJCjsuLoA:9 a=Slh89ABcg0etK55Y:21 a=HpG-X039zcUCXCQc:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ggz1lEykAnmZf_GpmZYA:9 a=qrSnVeMrGrVuaPIB:21 a=-LJ6O4Y45UxGEYUP:21 a=ciAR0h2dAQud2hET:21 a=S50rnUa8yRbNnh2hyxzf:22 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 a=Gg1WIDknCKb26pTtnjYt:22 a=kRgxhnY_DRINYC2-tCGn:22 From: "Charlie England ceengland7@gmail.com" Received: from mail-pf1-f172.google.com ([209.85.210.172] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2.9) with ESMTPS id 11884554 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 13:12:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.210.172; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-pf1-f172.google.com with SMTP id g62so8501799pfd.12 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 10:12:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3h6HeY3yo9gzMOYYbr5oy12HbxP1JIocHsOz73P4IXY=; b=p8walo7qDVIwXWNCbK4Zy2o9D38wIGsUQRpMzc6h949mooHeTfyZaZAEFx+YBCBbxI ap9hE0ISUhfDEQzcoISkZjeVpSLLEmiu7O1X1OVSEHCxxupaK3pMdQMe9JnCG/X6rmfw LqfcOlv8Lw5gs9Bz64QdfX5vXEaYi/Ole29ChNv2OGmu/4po23C5YSvPIWB/48RDrnk+ +eRhoCV6kG0ilVyG87tyQ7KajLw3ToeZ0ojzRkvTT94KT0UrYzyJ41O1cbVEy+YNVldw lMUEARPb8YHAK5bEegFUBVKyLmsTYcayJQCpSs6iouJDauIHGJN+sXu/tUsA8ewQqnTo ZTKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3h6HeY3yo9gzMOYYbr5oy12HbxP1JIocHsOz73P4IXY=; b=bXRfDZKPGONPnfLht72ZsjgzoDorzn9d2oYjXljuVS5u1sRxeCEjtcc9s/pLLRX3P8 0lEmbpApTjU+QI+jqEziPF4hJylKDrfrsOdgir0QdqmC0JkM2/Fe295Gsc4RqfVAVyxy fm5I7y3JqGEfTJmJbjjhkZP6oleA/rnbHM8aPyELbg05dh4567FqQunjwHQS1zfPHWnD N3922Pr2cUumeWmjGEgi7ojhqwNgw5dQMYYPHe8wpxKeslX867ziTzddII0p48EAgJ9s s1OE17qpCJF0tQhDTPEa/9sfjq4Ky3F3GGgq3meJWSWHSSOjUNRUI00hL8pQj46wavUo eWqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJdeN4eo7i1Hb5XTipP3NtCHmVvV1wF+D+yPDEA8anAkXJCWN+t 9vMe4czBHXJ8/DvSp0772hxvUGEh4+CnpmPg/XldbQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ckmRNeI94G9rsSojZ7uwvZZZiaH8L4NieTkQ5xtvz7i3BRyRrvnDxqgozdfNie+bA2xHvq2xCIp2OElfsgEaE= X-Received: by 2002:a63:f006:: with SMTP id k6mr10909120pgh.259.1542391914430; Fri, 16 Nov 2018 10:11:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 12:11:37 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel pump To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a060e057acc1a34" --0000000000002a060e057acc1a34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For perspective, Van's a/c specs them for boost pumps in all the carb'd 2 seat planes except the RV-12 (it uses a slightly different pump). It is plumbed after the fuel selector, and feeds the engine driven diaphragm pump. So in normal operation, fuel is always being sucked through the inactive Facet pump. The nature of the pump design means that there are two 'check valves' internally for the pump to function, but Facet does make similar pumps that have built-in check valves, in addition to the guts of the pump. I've never found any tech data that explains what the additional check valve accomplishes, so I can only speculate. Perhaps the additional check valve has a higher back-pressure capacity. I know I can't move any air through one with my lungs, for what that's worth. :-) My personal preference is serial operation, since it's much simpler to plumb, and I've never heard of a Facet cube pump failure that blocked flow. (The internal check valves would have to stick closed against suction of the downstream pump, or against pressure from the upstream pump.) The most common failure mode is the plunger sticking due to trash, and it is typically cured by clearing the trash. No one's ever said that they lost power with it happened; just that the pump quit 'clicking' (that's the sound they make when running). A stuck plunger is effectively what you have when the pump is turned off. Second most common failure is a permanently stuck plunger. One caution, if plumbed in series, is that it might overpower the float valve in the carb. If you intend to operate both pumps during takeoff/landing phases of flight, you would want to test your system to be sure it won't flood the carb with both running. Note that this isn't an uncommon issue. There are certified fuel injected Continental a/c engines that have two-speed boost pumps. If you run the boost pump in 'high' while the engine driven pump is operating correctly, it can flood the engine while it's running. Charlie On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 11:37 AM Joseph Berki jskmberki@windstream.net < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Charlie, > > > > You mentioned that these pumps can be plumbed in series or parallel. > Which method would be the safest? If a pump I series fails is there a > potential of blocking flow? In parallel if they don=E2=80=99t backflow w= hen turned > off it should be acceptable. Thanks > > Joe Berki > > > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, November 16, 2018 10:09 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel pump > > > > Hi Joe, > > > > My advice is to not even dream of using injection pumps with a carb. Even > the small ones can pump around 40 gph at 40 psi. If you put a 6psi > regulator on them they might pump twice that. Total waste of energy, at > best. Around 6A current draw (or more) for an injection pump, and a regul= ar > low pressure pump is far less than 1/2 that. > > > > Here's what you need (a pair of them): > > > http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=3D1542379986-20-345&b= rowse=3Dengines&product=3Dpump-carb > > > > Note that you don't have to purchase from Van's A/C; they are available > almost everywhere. Just be sure you get that model: 40108, If you're goin= g > to use AN fuel lines. It has -6 AN fittings on the pump. It's also > configured to pass fuel when turned off (a good thing), and it won't > backflow fuel if pressurized in the wrong direction (even though the spec > sheet says that it doesn't have a built-in check valve). You can plumb a > pair in series (much simpler) or in parallel. There are other Facet model= s > that have 1/8" or 1/4" pipe threads, if you want to use hose instead of A= N > hardware, but AN hardware isn't that difficult to make up, and it'll be > there forever. If you do go for hose fittings, just be sure that the pump > you select does *not* have an antisiphon valve, and the pressure is what > you want. (7psi is at the far upper limit of most carbs.) > > Here's the link to the Facet 'cube pump' models: > > https://www.facet-purolator.com/tech-information/ > > > > Charlie > > > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:42 AM Joseph Berki jskmberki@windstream.net < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > I have 2 electric pumps set up for fuel injection with a regulator and a > return line to the tank. > > I will be using a carb instead of EFI. What is the best approach, change > out the high pressure pumps for units designed for lower pressures or get= a > regulator that can drop the pressure to 4 to 7 psi for the carb? If the > pumps need to be change any suggestions for a reliable pump? Thanks for > any help. > > Joe Berki > > Limo EZ > > 13b P Port > > --0000000000002a060e057acc1a34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For= perspective, Van's a/c specs them for boost pumps in all the carb'= d 2 seat planes except the RV-12 (it uses a slightly different pump). It is= plumbed after the fuel selector, and feeds the engine driven diaphragm pum= p. So in normal operation, fuel is always being sucked through the inactive= Facet pump.=C2=A0

The na= ture of the pump design means that there are two 'check valves' int= ernally for the pump to function, but Facet does make similar pumps that ha= ve built-in check valves, in addition to the guts of the pump. I've nev= er found any tech data that explains what the additional check valve accomp= lishes, so I can only speculate. Perhaps the additional check valve has a h= igher back-pressure capacity. I know I can't move any air through one w= ith my lungs, for what that's worth. :-)

My personal preference is serial operation, since it&#= 39;s much simpler to plumb, and I've never heard of a Facet cube pump f= ailure that=C2=A0 blocked flow. (The internal check valves would have to st= ick closed against suction of the downstream pump, or against pressure from= the upstream pump.) The most common failure mode is the plunger sticking d= ue to trash, and it is typically cured by clearing the trash. No one's = ever said that they lost power with it happened; just that the pump quit &#= 39;clicking' (that's the sound they make when running). A stuck plu= nger is effectively what you have when the pump is turned off. Second most = common failure is a permanently stuck plunger.

One caution, if plumbed in series, is that it might o= verpower the float valve in the carb. If you intend to operate both pumps d= uring takeoff/landing phases of flight, you would want to test your system = to be sure it won't flood the carb with both running. Note that this is= n't an uncommon issue. There are certified fuel injected Continental a/= c engines that have two-speed boost pumps. If you run the boost pump in = 9;high' while the engine driven pump is operating correctly, it can flo= od the engine while it's running.

Charlie

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 11:37 AM Joseph Berki jskmberki@windstream.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Charlie,

=C2=A0=

You mentioned that these pumps can be plumbed in= series or parallel.=C2=A0 Which method would be the safest?=C2=A0 If a pum= p I series fails is there a potential of blocking flow?=C2=A0 In parallel i= f they don=E2=80=99t backflow when turned off it should be acceptable.=C2= =A0 Thanks

Joe Berki<= /p>

=C2=A0

From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
S= ent: Friday, November 16, 2018 10:09 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: F= uel pump

=C2=A0

Hi Joe,<= /u>

=C2=A0

My advice is to not even dream of using= injection pumps with a carb. Even the small ones can pump around 40 gph at= 40 psi. If you put a 6psi regulator on them they might pump twice that. To= tal waste of energy, at best. Around 6A current draw (or more) for an injec= tion pump, and a regular low pressure pump is far less than 1/2 that.

=C2=A0

Here's what you need (a pair of them)= :

=C2=A0

Note that you don't have to purchase from Van&= #39;s A/C; they are available almost everywhere. Just be sure you get that = model: 40108, If you're going to use AN fuel lines. It has -6 AN fittin= gs on the pump. It's also configured to pass fuel when turned off (a go= od thing), and it won't backflow fuel if pressurized in the wrong direc= tion (even though the spec sheet says that it doesn't have a built-in c= heck valve). You can plumb a pair in series (much simpler) or in parallel. = There are other Facet models that have 1/8" or 1/4" pipe threads,= if you want to use hose instead of AN hardware, but AN hardware isn't = that difficult to make up, and it'll be there forever. If you do go for= hose fittings, just be sure that the pump you select does *not* have an an= tisiphon valve, and the pressure is what you want. (7psi is at the far uppe= r limit of most carbs.)

Here's the link to the Facet &#= 39;cube pump' models:

=C2=A0

Charlie=

=C2=A0

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:42 AM Jose= ph Berki jskm= berki@windstream.net <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:=

I have 2 electric pumps set up for fuel injection with = a regulator and a return line to the tank.

I will be using a carb instead of EFI.=C2=A0 What is the best appro= ach, change out the high pressure pumps for units designed for lower pressu= res or get a regulator that can drop the pressure to 4 to 7 psi for the car= b?=C2=A0 If the pumps need to be change any suggestions for a reliable pump= ?=C2=A0 Thanks for any help.

Joe Be= rki

Limo EZ

13b P Port

--0000000000002a060e057acc1a34--