X-Junk-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 [] X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=aM2ykv1m c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=xgeYxlXEjUsb6Pj8mY0NOA==:117 a=x7bEGLp0ZPQA:10 a=xXDCcK6TKBsA:10 a=KeKAF7QvOSUA:10 a=_6GpL_ENAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=NYkxdyvkvfZoKQKfp8gA:9 a=QiXvk8Vj2Lu1lH0i:21 a=v4yuk8JLvRLfeoEJ:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=4HpmDqHkJbKW_op5o0QA:9 a=FZBGRmezvCGZu2TN:21 a=H6UV8YEVy0WDwMFi:21 a=5NvgnuQ277uoX52E:21 a=Urk15JJjZg1Xo0ryW_k8:22 From: "Todd Bartrim" Received: from mail-wr0-f180.google.com ([209.85.128.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.2c3) with ESMTPS id 10031197 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 18:56:24 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.128.180; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-wr0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p14so15585830wrg.1 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:56:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oELPVg/O8U6thCN86ZEplun8T/YM8eZI2EPau6ZPLUY=; b=QDLtF5QtoAmvkvCnrpmjjUbsAnkMU+9SJEL9kHGI16+360n60bqof8knYOSdveWRVD ru2mKLHIohx527LyPxAOdQDoCbEdeKU0xH75kMO5leA1Gmw/zPoxv5vZWQ86Eyq66DEa nRMY2h8+T2tbxyQNaknNSRLw/ND1XvhWhX0yb6yx51Whd4mKwTD/6FLonbuj9Lq2qtyi SFhhaUcvxMq/50L84wtWPD31hKbPeZlFDyBzbDY3aCNiBATgyEwCzGPt39SZAGeHPoqP 71wWt/RldcswcgvO9mattNr4jtzywgSqeabrSU42haSc0FCjQb20TDfimT/QdmHUesTs EYGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=oELPVg/O8U6thCN86ZEplun8T/YM8eZI2EPau6ZPLUY=; b=UYWps5IHBiHV2ff/cYzqo1Bt48mVXRZm7S/gdc/cB+yuD2kXCCwKK+zBOAZ2Pu06oj ZFHHUY5ebD3NEyd2sl//Gu+w1Aw2dz7nhj07QPd/LIeo/IkP/YxfeK4iaYLGRnIgETR2 S/wOQXxvKBJSPzvZAJkaqUkKirQKoBrgF0fTHOOTdTKwigUcKDbN/RsZENd3UXfe/VUf Z7BSKlWYc4YhJ1M+U9QsyPdxJe+qtwfHVrYeOnN/G5H4tt1EzMiIxsJ1Q/onAJ9nJpAD z0W6Qye2+cuS39SikCyEvp/wtHvDjcXDzdXkTAfaSV9vgjrYnTEDmcCDvMC99S3VvIzv pfqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5gNrCOBCYm+4i2hf35sEgoEKU9hxyMcCUsrwCA+G+Oy6xnhVUXY eXfg4PoHo595ziCneueLYgr0QqAb4g== X-Received: by 10.80.167.197 with SMTP id i63mr10545314edc.124.1503269766862; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:56:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.80.169.134 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:56:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 15:56:06 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolers To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1951d6749bf60557374430" --94eb2c1951d6749bf60557374430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back when, we had to guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few clicks on Amazon and 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools we need to know instead of guessing. Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> Todd Bartrim On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Christley < flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ducting. > > On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cowl. The other > water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes. The air exited the > cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and was supposed to go down > and out the bottom. It didn't do that. > > What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl. The air > hit the firewall and then spun around clockwise. I discovered what was > happening during the investigation of why some hoses were melting. I > constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, and saw a > significant drop in temps. > > All that is to say that the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the > flow outside. Today, I would tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, > wires, and engine mount tubes. I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that > turns my phone into a video surveillance monitor. I'd stick it in various > places under the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running. > > > > On Sunday, August 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim < > flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote: > > > I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Laminova heat > exchanger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had different > cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with this > heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't increase > the cooling of the system as a whole. > It should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat > exchangers. So if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling > to begin with, then this will do nothing to address that. > In my case I found that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL > in 3 minutes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of > room on my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would drop but my > oil temps would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this would help me > borrow from Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls > properly. > I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape and position of my > oil cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it looked good). > Now I have made a lot of other changes which hopefully should address > improper cooling airflow. As well as reshaping the oil cooler inlet duct I > also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, intercooler and right coolant > radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from the left radiator due to it's > close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe. This interfered with the space > required for a proper exit duct and I figured it probably would be a good > idea to have some airflow over the turbo. Previously I had only ducted my > inlets and left the air to find it's own way out of the cowl through what I > believed were adequate sized exits. Ed Anderson spent a lot of time > researching cooling air flows and finally was able to beat it into me that > exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet ducting. > The other change I made which I hope will have a significant effect is I > bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO prop. I also cut it down > from 76" to 70". This should give me a higher cruise speed with the > accompanying increase in cooling airflow with the same RPM. > So with all these changes it's unknown if this Laminova cooler will have > any benefit but I'm certainly not going to remove it as it it's only cost > at this point is a few pounds which if I need to get rid of that I'll just > start jogging again... not a bad idea anyways :-) > > On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, > wrote: > > As a side note to these observations there is something to be said about > overcooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher > altitudes or in cold conditions.) > An oil-to-coolant system help to moderate that scenario. > > T Mann > > Sent from Windows Mail > > > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > > > > --94eb2c1951d6749bf60557374430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another great example of how tech changes our lives. Back = when, we had to guess at what was happening under the cowl. Now a few click= s on Amazon and 2 days later we can have all the investigative tools we nee= d to know instead of guessing.

3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com

Todd Bartrim

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ernest Chri= stley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:
Just a point to highlight what Todd was saying about exit ductin= g.

On the Dyke Delta I built, I had a water cooler under the cow= l.=C2=A0 The other water cooler and oil cooler were buried in the strakes.= =C2=A0 The air exited the cooler under the cowl close to the firewall, and = was supposed to go down and out the bottom.=C2=A0 It didn't do that.

What it did was set up a horizontal whirlwind inside the cowl.=C2= =A0 The air hit the firewall and then spun around clockwise.=C2=A0 I discov= ered what was happening during the investigation of why some hoses were mel= ting.=C2=A0 I constructed a crude dam to force the air out the cowl exit, a= nd saw a significant drop in temps.

All that is to say that = the airflow INSIDE the cowl is as important as the flow outside. Today, I w= ould tuft the engine with pieces of yarn on hoses, wires, and engine mount = tubes.=C2=A0 I have a tiny camera with a 15ft cord that turns my phone into= a video surveillance monitor.=C2=A0 I'd stick it in various places und= er the cowl and see how the air flows with the engine running.



On Sunday, A= ugust 20, 2017 4:22 PM, Todd Bartrim <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


I didn't crunch any numbers in my decision to use this Lamin= ova heat exchanger, I only knew that in climb and level flight I had differ= ent cooling between oil & water and figured I could balance it out with= this heat exchanger at a small price in weight. It certainly doesn't i= ncrease the cooling of the system as a whole.
=C2=A0I= t should be pointed out that these are not coolers, only heat exchangers. S= o if a oil/water cooling system doesn't have adequate cooling to begin = with, then this will do nothing to address that.
In my case I fou= nd that I could climb from 2000' ASL (field) to 10000' ASL in 3 min= utes before my coolant temps hit redline, but I still had plenty of room on= my oil temps. In level flight my coolant temps would drop but my oil temps= would slowly increase to redline. So I figured this would help me borrow f= rom Peter to pay Paul. It still didn't address cooling shortfalls prope= rly.
=C2=A0 I believe the biggest culprit in this was the shape a= nd position of my oil cooler inlet which was form over function (hey, it lo= oked good).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Now I have made a lot of other changes w= hich hopefully should address improper cooling airflow. As well as reshapin= g the oil cooler inlet duct I also did outlet ducting for the oil cooler, i= ntercooler and right coolant radiator. I did not build a outlet duct from t= he left radiator due to it's close proximity to the turbo exhaust pipe.= This interfered with the space required for a proper exit duct and I figur= ed it probably would be a good idea to have some airflow over the turbo. Pr= eviously I had only ducted my inlets and left the air to find it's own = way out of the cowl through what I believed were adequate sized exits. Ed A= nderson spent a lot of time researching cooling air flows and finally was a= ble to beat it into me that exit ducting is every bit as important as inlet= ducting.
=C2=A0 The other change I made which I hope will have a= significant effect is I bought a new set of deep pitch blades for my IVO p= rop. I also cut it down from 76" to 70". This should give me a hi= gher cruise speed with the accompanying increase in cooling airflow with th= e same RPM.
So with all these changes it's unknown if this La= minova cooler will have any benefit but I'm certainly not going to remo= ve it as it it's only cost at this point is a few pounds which if I nee= d to get rid of that I'll just start jogging again... not a bad idea an= yways :-)

On Sun, Aug 20, 2017, 09:46 Thomas Mann, <flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net> wrote:
As = a side note to these observations there is something to be said about overc= ooling the engine oil. (i.e. cooling the oil too much at higher altitudes o= r in cold conditions.)
An oil-to-coolant= system help to moderate that scenario.
=
T Mann

Sent from Windows Mail

<= /div>


3D"" Virus-free. www.avast.com


=

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