X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Tom Gillespie" Received: from nm34-vm3.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com ([72.30.239.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.7) with ESMTPS id 8175142 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:45:02 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=72.30.239.75; envelope-from=pseudowilly33@ymail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ymail.com; s=s2048; t=1447947883; bh=m3Miqmd5gtgyeP4yrKXK96NOadlm+u4xa/TYkJhMCnU=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=AHVyuZF0Ftpq7uUXUtgL518H2fO8/YXkdbHMOFez/e0Z6XjYa3FbeGyGrKYMlnvnovzfsQZBPn1ltUQEIpgBRpxcCSqwt79/jwUWrvRUoDNVT7wygnUAq4YYgg7VxfKYneHkyZahSF4r+aCetK3sqkDV7x3BJbDNyIdAvDZyJK2ycx0u6nkbpRwH7gdjyGpf6C+Q1HnxfSh0QjTeUYc8jpoGyMOokM0uAMkLjgfZFv2JT7AyLrHlsM3D5QWTHR2Lxq85GSiVP7d7ZoibFh6E7qgDKMvB7qMa24PXuiXbYs1DnVz/1Lf9Neo3UVdPM9wF+1fdUMO3Q/Qu4VciEtSemQ== Received: from [98.139.215.140] by nm34.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2015 15:44:43 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.195] by tm11.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2015 15:44:43 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Nov 2015 15:44:43 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 806293.45620.bm@omp1004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: ZFy_FIYVM1kbcOKYB1r6werY6uwfl0XxJrSC.gL4Q2IbV7ZVo.qc_sQfQGWWnKc NM4kPsC5_Wftc52eCR9rGbMvnncJKnkR_C8phpBk0HmCperHBsICx6xYPzELEG.v1DBRUWeT8v8R vce_FtQa6Z4Yz9XJEBwxN1BZJsFE4.Pl.Mq4DU_99BSrl1.9uoyDK7NOBWxevYD0a937KjCVImH5 XTK6Hy3vSgNDuv2EMzOwR7FZQihouynhccUzeoACEfDbhPowQNrlsXdkZ9wCafIdcBNNgnDc.NH9 PDSw_UDj9O9Cl8mYfe_dKPHPvm4FvRphLivZL9yWLGeHP8ZNviV8Y.K_9lsFXWI51h_4FZGeND0E RFCZfma.OMYDuCniA5U6TmDyqqgXhfyrrJJ3sGRS1ivea_Jd4oAnEJKeXQZHCexr4B64JBPWJqAU IRLZQXgq85bFn_jWtHXcgyvCRMqPldJPflt941z9H9LoDd5oQrDgyXCJpGi9PXTv1nlkDrb1Sz9J N4cXO2BL9y9W2iilOZxyWOKDR7gpiL.hEtL49_WfBqz4- Received: by 76.13.26.107; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:44:43 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:44:42 +0000 (UTC) Reply-To: Tom Gillespie To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <1955386362.7524232.1447947882629.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B with RD-1C Prop Options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7524231_1185873955.1447947882619" Content-Length: 16778 ------=_Part_7524231_1185873955.1447947882619 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morning everyone,=C2=A0 I received a few replies to facebook late last nigh= t about the 20B and this morning I went to respond and they are gone for so= me reason. If you responded, please do it again or you can find me on the c= anard forums as magnum. Sorry for the mix up.~~~tg~~~ From: Bobby J. Hughes To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:25 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B with RD-1C Prop Options =20 James. A PP is not a bad idea if you need the extra HP. My opinion is based on the= RV10 airframe that is designed for 260HP. The 20B side port is a perfect m= atch but you may benefit using a good (MT) constant speed prop. Cold idle a= nd taxi tuning is more challenging because of the higher manifold pressure.= 17-18" MP has been observed but this improves some as the engine warms up.= =C2=A0 A PP adds noise but a lot more available takeoff HP if needed. Not s= ure you will see any benefit at normal cruise rpm but I bet you could easil= y reach VNE at higher rpm.=C2=A0 I really like Tracy's simple intake with s= traight runners and plenum.=C2=A0 Have fun! Bobby -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:05 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B with RD-1C Prop Options So I finally got a dynamic pressure test done on this 20B.=C2=A0 Here is wh= at I got: Front: 105-125-105 Center: 105-101-87 Rear: 130-125-120 This is in PSI and was done with all spark plugs out except the rotor being= tested.=C2=A0 That one got one spark plug and the compression fitting with= pressure transducer attached in the other.=C2=A0 I used the RD-1C installe= d, but not engaged - I bolted up the flex plate without the adapter and bol= ted up the RD-1C with a starter to be able to crank it over.=C2=A0 So the r= edrive was not slowing things down when I cranked it over.=C2=A0 Then I rec= orded the pressure wave on a laptop and looked at three bumps in a row.=C2= =A0 I did this a few times for each rotor with a pause in between and took = the highest readings of any three successive peaks to estimate the health o= f the three faces on each rotor. My understanding is that higher numbers are better and the same numbers acr= oss all faces in the motor is better.=C2=A0 I am unclear what an unacceptab= le low number might be.=C2=A0 The actual values you get are dependent on a = number of factors including how fast you are cranking (how well charged you= r battery is, how beefy the cables are, what kind of porting, other losses = like the PSRU if it were engaged, etc.) and if the motor is broken in or no= t.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t know if this motor was broken in, or if any seals = were replaced.=C2=A0 It looks clean inside and there is evidence of porting= , but I don=E2=80=99t know exactly what (this is a side port configuration = motor). When I lost a side seal on my 13B REW in my RX-7, I got something like 118-= 120-50 on the rotor that had the problem.=C2=A0 So that was clearly not goo= d.=C2=A0 When I rebuilt that motor that time, I had the plates ground as th= ey were beyond the wear limit and I used all new side and corner seals and = springs.=C2=A0 After that rebuild, I got uniformly 120 to 130 on all faces = which I think is very good. So, what do you guys think of my 20B numbers?=C2=A0 Is that low face on the= Center rotor bad enough to warrant tearing the motor completely apart?=C2= =A0 If I decide to do that, I might very well go PP.=C2=A0 Though Bobby at = least thinks that is a bad idea due to noise and tuning difficulties with t= he PP.=C2=A0 Or I could just live with it with these numbers, go side port,= and break it in and start checking this periodically to see if there is an= y improvement or further deterioration. Thoughts or opinions? =E2=80=94 James > On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:22 PM, James R. Osborn wrote: >=20 > Hi guys, >=20 > So I am going to be building an RV-10.=C2=A0 I sourced Bobby=E2=80=99s sp= are 20B / RD-1C combo and my plan is to work on the motor first, kind of ba= ss-ackward but that is what I am doing.=C2=A0 My plan is to build a motor/m= ount test stand and work everything out on the ground before I ever put it = in an airframe.=C2=A0 I plan to set it up NA using the existing side port c= onfiguration.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t know if it is ported - I am going to at= tempt to determine this by inspection without cracking it open and doing a = dynamic compression test to evaluate the health of the motor.=C2=A0 If it i= s necessary to entirely rebuild the motor, I would probably go PP.=C2=A0 So= I am thinking the target HP as it is would be in the 275 HP range and prob= ably 325 HP if it ends up being a PP.=C2=A0 How do these numbers sound to y= ou all? >=20 > I will be looking for a way to dyno it, hopefully borrow one to get some = data.=C2=A0 But I was also thinking about just getting an appropriate fixed= pitch prop and working through the bugs based on static run ups.=C2=A0 I l= ike the idea of a three blade prop.=C2=A0 I like the idea of optimizing for= cruise at 75%, say 5800 rpm which would put full throttle at 7733 rpm on t= he 20B.=C2=A0 At 5800 rpm, the prop would be spinning 2035 rpm and at full = throttle 2713 rpm (using the 2.85 ratio RD-1C PSRU).=C2=A0 Do all these num= bers sound about right? >=20 > If so, then how do I choose a prop that will result in 2713 rpm static ru= n up at full throttle, but be tuned for efficiency at 2035 rpm cruise?=C2= =A0 I am assuming at these reasonable RPMs that it will be a larger swing a= nd the three blade makes sense - what do you think?=C2=A0 Is there a conven= ient way to find props out there that will work at the target full throttle= HP of 275 or 325?=C2=A0 Also if you guys have any good resources to learn = about how to figure these things out (books, web pages, online calculators,= etc.) that would be great! >=20 > Another option might be to go with something like the IVOPROP Magnum, eit= her ground adjustable or electric inflight adjustable.=C2=A0 What do you gu= ys think of these?=C2=A0 Would the adjustability really help me adapt to ho= wever my power plant turns out?=C2=A0 Would the extra complexity be worth i= t?=C2=A0 For the ground adjustable one, I am thinking the process would be:= =C2=A0 1. select the =E2=80=9Ccorrect=E2=80=9D swing (how?) and go for thre= e blades, 2) use ground adjustability and work up to THE pitch while I tune= the motor until I achieve full throttle static run up around 7700 RPM.=C2= =A0 Will this result in a reasonably efficient setting for 75% cruise?=C2= =A0 Am I thinking about this clearly?=C2=A0 All opinions are welcome. >=20 > There=E2=80=99s a lot for you to chew on! >=20 > =E2=80=94 James >=20 -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 -- Homepage:=C2=A0 http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub:=C2=A0 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/L= ist.html ------=_Part_7524231_1185873955.1447947882619 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mornin= g everyone,
  I received a few r= eplies to facebook late last night about the 20B and this morning I went to= respond and they are gone for some reason. If you responded, please do it = again or you can find me on the canard forums as magnum. Sorry for the mix = up.
~~~tg~~~

From: Bobby J. Hughes <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<= b>To: Rotary motors in aircra= ft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 9:25 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B with RD-= 1C Prop Options

James.

A PP is not a bad idea if y= ou need the extra HP. My opinion is based on the RV10 airframe that is desi= gned for 260HP. The 20B side port is a perfect match but you may benefit us= ing a good (MT) constant speed prop. Cold idle and taxi tuning is more chal= lenging because of the higher manifold pressure. 17-18" MP has been observe= d but this improves some as the engine warms up.  A PP adds noise but = a lot more available takeoff HP if needed. Not sure you will see any benefi= t at normal cruise rpm but I bet you could easily reach VNE at higher rpm.&= nbsp; I really like Tracy's simple intake with straight runners and plenum.=   Have fun!

Bobby

-----Original Message-----
From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.= net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:05 PM
To: Rotary motor= s in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B with RD-1C Prop Options
So I finally got a dynamic pressure test done on this 20B.  Here is = what I got:

Front: 105-125-105
Center: 105-101-87
Rear: 130-12= 5-120

This is in PSI and was done with all spark plugs out except th= e rotor being tested.  That one got one spark plug and the compression= fitting with pressure transducer attached in the other.  I used the R= D-1C installed, but not engaged - I bolted up the flex plate without the ad= apter and bolted up the RD-1C with a starter to be able to crank it over.&n= bsp; So the redrive was not slowing things down when I cranked it over.&nbs= p; Then I recorded the pressure wave on a laptop and looked at three bumps = in a row.  I did this a few times for each rotor with a pause in betwe= en and took the highest readings of any three successive peaks to estimate = the health of the three faces on each rotor.

My understanding is tha= t higher numbers are better and the same numbers across all faces in the mo= tor is better.  I am unclear what an unacceptable low number might be.=   The actual values you get are dependent on a number of factors inclu= ding how fast you are cranking (how well charged your battery is, how beefy= the cables are, what kind of porting, other losses like the PSRU if it wer= e engaged, etc.) and if the motor is broken in or not.  I don=E2=80=99= t know if this motor was broken in, or if any seals were replaced.  It= looks clean inside and there is evidence of porting, but I don=E2=80=99t k= now exactly what (this is a side port configuration motor).

When I l= ost a side seal on my 13B REW in my RX-7, I got something like 118-120-50 o= n the rotor that had the problem.  So that was clearly not good. = When I rebuilt that motor that time, I had the plates ground as they were = beyond the wear limit and I used all new side and corner seals and springs.=   After that rebuild, I got uniformly 120 to 130 on all faces which I = think is very good.

So, what do you guys think of my 20B numbers?&nb= sp; Is that low face on the Center rotor bad enough to warrant tearing the = motor completely apart?  If I decide to do that, I might very well go = PP.  Though Bobby at least thinks that is a bad idea due to noise and = tuning difficulties with the PP.  Or I could just live with it with th= ese numbers, go side port, and break it in and start checking this periodic= ally to see if there is any improvement or further deterioration.

Th= oughts or opinions?

=E2=80=94 James

> On Oct 29, 2015, at = 1:22 PM, James R. Osborn <rxcited@gmail.com> wrote:
>
= > Hi guys,
>
> So I am going to be building an RV-10. = I sourced Bobby=E2=80=99s spare 20B / RD-1C combo and my plan is to work o= n the motor first, kind of bass-ackward but that is what I am doing.  = My plan is to build a motor/mount test stand and work everything out on the= ground before I ever put it in an airframe.  I plan to set it up NA u= sing the existing side port configuration.  I don=E2=80=99t know if it= is ported - I am going to attempt to determine this by inspection without = cracking it open and doing a dynamic compression test to evaluate the healt= h of the motor.  If it is necessary to entirely rebuild the motor, I w= ould probably go PP.  So I am thinking the target HP as it is would be= in the 275 HP range and probably 325 HP if it ends up being a PP.  Ho= w do these numbers sound to you all?
>
> I will be looking for= a way to dyno it, hopefully borrow one to get some data.  But I was a= lso thinking about just getting an appropriate fixed pitch prop and working= through the bugs based on static run ups.  I like the idea of a three= blade prop.  I like the idea of optimizing for cruise at 75%, say 580= 0 rpm which would put full throttle at 7733 rpm on the 20B.  At 5800 r= pm, the prop would be spinning 2035 rpm and at full throttle 2713 rpm (usin= g the 2.85 ratio RD-1C PSRU).  Do all these numbers sound about right?=
>
> If so, then how do I choose a prop that will result in 27= 13 rpm static run up at full throttle, but be tuned for efficiency at 2035 = rpm cruise?  I am assuming at these reasonable RPMs that it will be a = larger swing and the three blade makes sense - what do you think?  Is = there a convenient way to find props out there that will work at the target= full throttle HP of 275 or 325?  Also if you guys have any good resou= rces to learn about how to figure these things out (books, web pages, onlin= e calculators, etc.) that would be great!
>
> Another option m= ight be to go with something like the IVOPROP Magnum, either ground adjusta= ble or electric inflight adjustable.  What do you guys think of these?=   Would the adjustability really help me adapt to however my power pla= nt turns out?  Would the extra complexity be worth it?  For the g= round adjustable one, I am thinking the process would be:  1. select t= he =E2=80=9Ccorrect=E2=80=9D swing (how?) and go for three blades, 2) use g= round adjustability and work up to THE pitch while I tune the motor until I= achieve full throttle static run up around 7700 RPM.  Will this resul= t in a reasonably efficient setting for 75% cruise?  Am I thinking abo= ut this clearly?  All opinions are welcome.
>
> There=E2= =80=99s a lot for you to chew on!
>
> =E2=80=94 James
> =


--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:  <= a href=3D"http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html" targe= t=3D"_blank">http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=
   
--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and= UnSub:  http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrota= ry/List.html


------=_Part_7524231_1185873955.1447947882619--