X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: Received: from omr-m008e.mx.aol.com ([204.29.186.7] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1.6) with ESMTPS id 8056111 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 08 Oct 2015 02:19:05 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.29.186.7; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mbd02.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mbd02.mx.aol.com [172.26.252.16]) by omr-m008e.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 0794E3800069 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 02:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-moa03b.mail.aol.com (core-moa03.mail.aol.com [172.27.97.13]) by mtaomg-mbd02.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id B66E738000083 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 2015 02:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Full-name: Lehanover Message-ID: <32e710.ba6d53f.434764b6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 02:18:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: To P or not... To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_32e710.ba6d53f.434764b6_boundary" X-Mailer: Unknown sub 18 X-Originating-IP: [74.140.106.236] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20150623; t=1444285110; bh=Zk/qUYFGXCDQ/SAr/y+gXwKAYd6NeXaaoawP4kIA9sM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=St6EXQM4AmZCVQc7KGkU+fvMRMFPy+WXd7jZnTW8qFu6N87Jdvh9ERWYexKp8DoA1 sJX5d42itAIDdqzJqKrEIrjt+w8WybWL3uwQZsybMLNMNACCIZOW0RtwCx6yWYQOnO 6Nf0WJ9WYMznwudXg25ZiWqFgdJqjWCO6CjwXz0s= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afc1056160ab651af --part1_32e710.ba6d53f.434764b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Not the case for a turbo installation. Both the exhaust and intake of turb= o=20 systems are just long enough to mount the turbo. Once you have the intake= =20 charge well above ambient pressure, not much length tuning is needed. =20 The ports and runner sizes in the turbo irons are enormous.=20 =20 In the normally aspirated Pport both intake and exhaust lengths and =20 diameters make a big difference. Note the Mistral runner lengths. ( a side= port =20 engine). Similar lengths would put best power in a Pport at a similar RPM.= =20 The biggest effect will be muffler design. NA rotaries tune like dirt bik= es.=20 Very sensitive to exhaust length, diameter and back pressure. The Le mans= =20 engine had adjustable inlet lengths because it was an NA engine.=20 =20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 =20 In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:04:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, =20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes: Bill, You couldn't be more incorrect. The P port is VERY tuneable. Witness the= =20 LeMans 26B which had variable length intakes to improve driveability acro= ss=20 the rev range. You just need to alter your thinking a bit. The rotor IS= THE=20 VALVE. When in the intake phase tuning length is very effective. A turbo= =20 works similarly, but length isn't as critical. Obstruction is more import= ant=20 in the turbo version. If the path is clean and free of sharp corners the= =20 turbo doesn't work as hard and doesn't heat the intake charge as much. Le= ss=20 need for an intercooler.=20 Bill Jepson=20 On Oct 7, 2015 4:35 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: =20 If I understand the situation, and believe me, I probably don=E2=80=99t= =E2=80=A6.a tuned=20 intake would give a turbo more power at a given boost pressure than it=20 would have untuned at that same boost pressure. However, the benefit mig= ht not=20 be worth the effort due to the small incremental difference.=20 On the other hand, a P-port is never closed so there would be negligible= =20 reflected waves to use for tuning. The rotor apex seal slides by the=20 opening of the port and slices off the fuel/air charge that is going to= one rotor=20 face and it starts to be directed to the other face. Think of the intake= =20 air column as a sausage that is being sliced off as the apex goes by the= =20 open port. Very little reflectivity to use for tuning.=20 Or more likely, I could be wrong.=20 Bill =20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) ]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 11:39 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To P or not... One more question to throw into the mix. A friend is building a Cozy and= =20 has 13B short block, currently believed to be fresh though compression an= d=20 leak down tests remain to be done. He is now thinking to go turbo instea= d=20 of tearing it down to go P-port. Is it true that there is no intake runn= er=20 tuning for a turbo setup? Yes it is more complicated to go turbo (than= =20 peripheral), but there is also the advantages at altitude.=20 =20 =20 So the extra question is: P-port or turbo?=20 =20 =20 James R. Osborn _rxcited@gmail.com_ (mailto:rxcited@gmail.com) =20 =20 =20 On Oct 7, 2015, at 8:17 AM, Bill Bradburry <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_= =20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: =20 =20 Christian,=20 While you are doing that, you could also include some info on your=20 pporting of the Renesis. How did you know where to bore the holes for pr= oper=20 timing and how did you seal the water jacket? I assume that you just pl= ugged=20 up the original ports with JB weld or something?=20 Thanks,=20 One of the other Bills=20 =20 =20 ____________________________________ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 9:04 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To P or not... =20 =20 =20 can you give details on your custom built hotdog with inox? baffling. =20 =20 Thanks =20 Bill Schertz =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: _Christian And Tam_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) =20 =20 Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 11:08 PM =20 To: _Rotary motors in aircraft_ (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) =20 =20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To P or not... =20 =20 =20 I would agree, yes it worked out to be allot more simpler running 2 x 2"= =20 runners than playing with 4 in my opinion and easier to manufactur etc =20 From modifying my engine from a not so good 6 port intake to a simple 2= =20 port intake I gained a good 30-40 hp and 15 k top end =20 The noise also isn't that bad on my renises as I've attached a custom=20 built hotdog underneath with inox baffling which works well =20 Sent from my iPhone =20 On 7 Oct 2015, at 1:34 pm, Mark McClure <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: =20 =20 Trying to ensure I have a complete knowledge before I make my decision, =20 =20 The P port as shown for the website is exactly what we are looking for.= =20 Straight forward power at high rpm. The noise is a factor of energy outp= ut=20 which is the same. =20 =20 =20 If I tune a 4 port runner system and get x amount of air into the engine= I=20 give y amount of fuel and I have z amount of power and engine=20 exhaust/noise to handle. =20 =20 If I use a P port and get x amount of air and give y amount of fuel it is= =20 the exact same z output. It was just easier to get x amount of air into= =20 the system. =20 =20 Or am I completely off base. =20 =20 On Oct 6, 2015, at 2:17 PM, William Jepson <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_= =20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote: =20 Bob, One thing that everyone should get clear is that for aircraft PPorts are= =20 almost always superior. At higher RPMs. Also Pports will idle just fine.= =20 Good balance and vibration control are the key to good idle. The engine= won't=20 make a lot of power at low rpm but that isn't a problem for an aircraft.= =20 The rotary makes a better aircraft engine than a car engine!=20 Bill Jepson=20 =20 On Oct 6, 2015 9:14 AM, "Rogers, Bob J." <_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_= =20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) > wrote:=20 You should read the description of the effects of P-porting at this=20 website. See bottom entry. http://www.mazdarotary.net/porting.htm And= it is=20 loud!!! See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJebl2pWaiWI Bob J. Rogers -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:_flyrotary@lancaironline.net_=20 (mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net) ] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 10:33 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] To P or not... I understand the benefits of P porting the engine. And I think I know= =20 the answer to my question but thought I'd verify. Looking for 180-200 hp. I have a freshly overhauled 2004 4 port 13b. If the intake and exhaust are built right I should have no problem gettin= g=20 that power NA. If I P port the intake it will be easier to make 200 or more. however it= =20 is just easier to get air into the engine, and therefore more fuel. But= it=20 is not by any means more fuel efficient? So therefore if I don't need the power I don't need to P port. Mark -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --part1_32e710.ba6d53f.434764b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Not the case for a turbo installation. Both the exhaust and intake of= turbo=20 systems are just long enough to mount the turbo. Once you have the intake= charge=20 well above ambient pressure, not much length tuning is needed.
 
The ports and runner sizes in the turbo irons are enormous.
 
In the normally aspirated Pport both intake and exhaust lengths and= =20 diameters make a big difference. Note the Mistral runner lengths. ( a side= port=20 engine). Similar lengths would put best power in a Pport at a similar RPM.= The=20 biggest effect will be muffler design. NA rotaries tune like dirt bikes.= Very=20 sensitive to exhaust length, diameter and back pressure. The Le mans engin= e had=20 adjustable inlet lengths because it was an NA engine.
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
In a message dated 10/7/2015 8:04:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 flyrotary@lancaironline.net writes:

Bill,
You couldn't be more incorrect. The P port is VERY= =20 tuneable. Witness the LeMans 26B which had variable length intakes to im= prove=20 driveability across the rev range. You just need to alter your thinking= a bit.=20 The rotor IS THE VALVE. When in the intake phase tuning length is very= =20 effective. A turbo works similarly, but length isn't as critical. Obstru= ction=20 is more important in the turbo version. If the path is clean and free of= sharp=20 corners the turbo doesn't work as hard and doesn't heat the intake charg= e as=20 much. Less need for an intercooler.

Bill Jepson

On Oct 7, 2015 4:35 PM, "Bill Bradburry" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /A>>=20 wrote:

If I unders= tand the=20 situation, and believe me, I probably don=E2=80=99t=E2=80=A6.a tuned= intake would give a=20 turbo more power at a given boost pressure than it would have untuned= at=20 that same boost pressure.  However, the benefit might not be wort= h the=20 effort due to the small incremental=20 difference.

On the othe= r hand,=20 a P-port is never closed so there would be negligible reflected waves= to use=20 for tuning.  The rotor apex seal slides by the opening of the por= t and=20 slices off the fuel/air charge that is going to one rotor face and it= starts=20 to be directed to the other face.  Think of the intake air column= as a=20 sausage that is being sliced off as the apex goes by the open port.&nb= sp;=20 Very little reflectivity to use for tuning.

<= /U> 

Or more lik= ely, I=20 could be wrong.

<= /U> 

Bill=20

<= /U> 

From= :=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 20= 15 11:39=20 AM
To: Rotar= y motors=20 in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: To P or not...

 

One more question to throw into the mix.&nbs= p; A=20 friend is building a Cozy and has 13B short block, currently believed= to be=20 fresh though compression and leak down tests remain to be done. = He is=20 now thinking to go turbo instead of tearing it down to go P-port. = ; Is=20 it true that there is no intake runner tuning for a turbo setup? = Yes=20 it is more complicated to go turbo (than peripheral), but there is als= o the=20 advantages at altitude.

 

So the extra question is:  P-port or=20 turbo?

 

James R. Osborn
rxcited@gmail.com=20

 

 

Christian= ,

 

While you= are=20 doing that, you could also include some info on your pporting of the= =20 Renesis.  How did you know where to bore the holes for proper= timing=20 and how did you seal the water jacket?  I assume that you just= =20 plugged up the original ports with JB weld or=20 something?

 

Thanks,

One of th= e other=20 Bills

 

<= FONT size=3D3=20 face=3D"Times New Roman">

Fr= om:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 07,= 2015=20 9:04 AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: To= P or=20 not...

=  

can you give details= on your=20 custom built hotdog with inox?=20 baffling.

 

Thanks=

Bill=20 Schertz

=  

Fr= om: Christia= n And=20 Tam

Se= nt:=20 Tuesday, October 06, 2015 11:08=20 PM

To= : Rotary= motors in=20 aircraft

Su= bject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: To P or=20 not...

 

I would agree, yes= it worked=20 out to be allot more simpler running 2 x 2" runners than playing wit= h 4 in=20 my opinion and  easier to manufactur=20 etc

From modifying my en= gine=20 from a not so good 6 port intake to a simple 2 port intake I gained= a good=20 30-40 hp and 15 k top=20 end

The noise also isn't= that=20 bad on my renises as I've attached a custom built hotdog underneath= with=20 inox baffling which works=20 well



Sent from my= =20 iPhone


On 7=20 Oct 2015, at 1:34 pm, Mark McClure <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

Trying to ensure= I have a=20 complete knowledge before I make my=20 decision,

 

The P port as show= n for=20 the website is exactly what we are looking for. Straight forward= power=20 at high rpm.  The noise is a factor of energy output which is= the=20 same. 

 

If I tune a 4 port= runner=20 system and get x amount of air into the engine I give y amount of= fuel=20 and I have z amount of power and engine exhaust/noise to=20 handle.

 

If I use a P port= and get=20 x amount of air and give y amount of fuel it is the exact same z= =20 output.  It was just easier to get x amount of air into the= =20 system.

 

Or am I completely= off=20 base.

 


On=20 Oct 6, 2015, at 2:17 PM, William Jepson <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

Bob,
One thin= g that=20 everyone should get clear is that for aircraft PPorts are almost= =20 always superior. At higher RPMs. Also Pports will idle just fine= . Good=20 balance and vibration control are the key to good idle. The engi= ne=20 won't make a lot of power at low rpm but that isn't a problem fo= r an=20 aircraft. The rotary makes a better aircraft engine than a car= =20 engine!

Bill=20 Jepson

On Oct 6, 2015= 9:14 AM,=20 "Rogers, Bob J." <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>=20 wrote:

You should read= the=20 description of the effects of P-porting at this website. = See=20 bottom entry.   http://www.mazdarotary.net/porting.htm = And it=20 is loud!!!  See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DJebl2pWaiWI

Bob=20 J. Rogers

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
Sent: Tuesda= y,=20 October 06, 2015 10:33 AM
To: Rotary motors in= =20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] To P or not...
I=20 understand the benefits of P porting the engine.  And I thi= nk I=20 know the answer to my question but thought I'd verify.

Lo= oking=20 for 180-200 hp.  I have a freshly overhauled 2004 4 port=20 13b.
If the intake and exhaust are built right I should have= no=20 problem getting that power NA.

If I P port the intake it= will=20 be easier to make 200 or more. however it is just easier to get= air=20 into the engine, and therefore more fuel. But it is not by any= means=20 more fuel efficient?

So therefore if I don't need the pow= er I=20 don't need to P port.

Mark


--
Homepage:&nbs= p; http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary= /List.html



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Homepage: =20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
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