X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "James R. Osborn" Received: from mail-pa0-f48.google.com ([209.85.220.48] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c3) with ESMTPS id 7450167 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 19:38:59 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.48; envelope-from=rxcited@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id ey11so45179136pad.7 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:38:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to; bh=3zjxRQSaFO0S6cV8Puny7ZNpgOmXEnhDIqb2v4DrZ0w=; b=WOTA5mcX3c4TG8jIBOqE5jbsQn213b4WiqsVGNx7PbL4iwscrCa/GZcgwLZV8/YAzD kNz0ezC4QCP/HcPcQseqf28TFN8wxLGxl0fNYxKyjBmhUvSFi/wUerFMIo+nUgWS6x6O I0w4RLlhd5VWEHqXnRBZF5LTcQ9kcOKDbYxr1Ac8isyoN1Pk9s1B9RHBgdrpPL50jEfI NSFIwH4TynZ9sZ+Nn52QyeESX6o3yXz9VPLlrJk/Gt/nBxR9Odu+dXI3LnpV6dYsEaYR 8UNsyDAiOT2GgjMqbd5cnNEnnO19Hkmitrjlac/1zFDxhFe/UaqfEd+SqX5a6hjaAeRu Dtvg== X-Received: by 10.66.102.2 with SMTP id fk2mr4502203pab.149.1422578305000; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:38:25 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from jrosborn-m76.lbl.gov (jrosborn-m76.lbl.gov. [128.3.128.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id uy8sm8907582pbc.31.2015.01.29.16.38.24 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:38:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_51F40F51-2D7E-4E43-AD32-661177F0CDF8" Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] swirl / expansion tank configuration Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:38:23 -0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) --Apple-Mail=_51F40F51-2D7E-4E43-AD32-661177F0CDF8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 You guys are really confusing me! Granted all my rotary work so far is = on my car. Once upon a time, my car had an AST (air separator tank). = It was a small round job next to the radiator, maybe 3 inches OD, 3 or 4 = inches tall. I=E2=80=99m thinking it served similar purposes to the = swirl tank in your designs? Mazda made it of plastic and it had a nasty = tendency to burst after aging in the heat soaked engine bay long enough. = Most Rx-7 owners including myself, removed the AST system - others = replaced it with aftermarket aluminum versions. As I recall it had a = tube at the bottom that went downwards to an extra nipple on the bottom = of the radiator, but I forget where the input came from. I am wondering = how this system compares to the ones you are describing? Where is the = pump in the last figure (Steve vs Jeff)? And where is the =E2=80=9Cairble= ed hose=E2=80=9D bleeding air from? Is the idea that it is just a high = point in the system that continuously is drawing out any air bubbles = that get created or trapped in the system? I have to ask another related question - why not use Evans waterless = coolant? I think we discussed it a bit before. It seems like the = expansion/contraction is a lot smaller because it boils at a much higher = temperature than standard coolant/water mix. I run this in my car now, = but my car is a project car that hasn=E2=80=99t gotten enough serious = abuse to have more opinions on the efficacy of Evans. But I believe = that Rotax engines use it - so aircraft use is not beyond the pale. I = am just wondering if all this (seeming) complexity in the cooling system = arrangement would be needed if a waterless coolant were used. =E2=80=94 James > On Jan 29, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Jeff Whaley = wrote: >=20 > Hi Steve, I=E2=80=99ve attached a sketch of our two systems as I = understand them. Your system is equivalent to a gas can turned upside = down with a very small outlet hose and the air cap sealed tight =E2=80=93 = no, or at least very little flow out the bottom. I=E2=80=99m pretty = sure if you de-pressurize your system, remove the expansion tank cap and = come back 2-3 weeks later, the level in the expansion tank will have = increased. You won=E2=80=99t see any change during a quick top-off in a = couple minutes. If you open your Schrader valve it will overflow in a = few seconds. I understand your systems=E2=80=99 equilibrium once it is = topped-up and you are in maintenance-mode =E2=80=93 but how do you fill = your engine when bone-dry? I assume you close/pinch the lower hose and = fill the block from the top as complete as possible; at this point you = can seal the Schrader valve, add coolant to expansion tank, open lower = hose, pressurize it and force it into bottom of engine while slowly = opening Schrader valve. > Jeff > =20 > From: > Steven W. Boese > > Subject: > Re: [FlyRotary] Re: swirl / expansion tank configuration > Date: > Thu, 29 Jan 2015 19:38:50 +0000 > To: > Rotary motors in aircraft > > = >=20 > = > =E2=80=8BJeff, > In my system, the outlet of the water pump (high pressure and coolant = high level) is connected to the expansion tank at a location a couple of = inches from the bottom of the tank. The inlet of the water pump (low = pressure and low coolant level) is connected to the bottom of the = expansion tank. Both connections to the coolant tank are below the = coolant level in the tank at all times. With the engine not running, = the expansion tank does not back-fill with coolant even if the expansion = tank filler cap is removed. In my system, the expansion tank cannot = back-fill unless the volume of the coolant in the rest of the system is = increased (by thermal expansion for example) or air is introduced into = that part of the system. > Steve =20 > =20 > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. = Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you. -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = --Apple-Mail=_51F40F51-2D7E-4E43-AD32-661177F0CDF8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 You guys are really confusing me!  Granted all my rotary = work so far is on my car.  Once upon a time, my car had an AST (air = separator tank).  It was a small round job next to the radiator, = maybe 3 inches OD, 3 or 4 inches tall.  I=E2=80=99m thinking it = served similar purposes to the swirl tank in your designs?  Mazda = made it of plastic and it had a nasty tendency to burst after aging in = the heat soaked engine bay long enough.  Most Rx-7 owners including = myself, removed the AST system - others replaced it with aftermarket = aluminum versions.  As I recall it had a tube at the bottom that = went downwards to an extra nipple on the bottom of the radiator, but I = forget where the input came from.  I am wondering how this system = compares to the ones you are describing?  Where is the pump in the = last figure (Steve vs Jeff)?  And where is the =E2=80=9Cairbleed = hose=E2=80=9D bleeding air from?  Is the idea that it is just a = high point in the system that continuously is drawing out any air = bubbles that get created or trapped in the system?

I have to ask another related question = - why not use Evans waterless coolant?  I think we discussed it a = bit before.  It seems like the expansion/contraction is a lot = smaller because it boils at a much higher temperature than standard = coolant/water mix.  I run this in my car now, but my car is a = project car that hasn=E2=80=99t gotten enough serious abuse to have more = opinions on the efficacy of Evans.  But I believe that Rotax = engines use it - so aircraft use is not beyond the pale.  I am just = wondering if all this (seeming) complexity in the cooling system = arrangement would be needed if a waterless coolant were used.

=E2=80=94 = James

On Jan 29, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Jeff Whaley = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

Hi Steve, = I=E2=80=99ve attached a sketch of our two systems as I understand = them.  Your system is equivalent to a gas can turned upside down = with a very small outlet hose and the air cap sealed tight =E2=80=93 no, = or at least very little flow out the bottom.  I=E2=80=99m pretty = sure if you de-pressurize your system, remove the expansion tank cap and = come back 2-3 weeks later, the level in the expansion tank will have = increased.  You won=E2=80=99t see any change during a quick top-off = in a couple minutes.   If you open your Schrader valve it will = overflow in a few seconds.  I understand your systems=E2=80=99 = equilibrium once it is topped-up and you are in maintenance-mode =E2=80=93= but how do you fill your engine when bone-dry? I assume you close/pinch = the lower hose and fill the block from the top as complete as possible; = at this point you can seal the Schrader valve, add coolant to expansion = tank, open lower hose, pressurize it and force it into bottom of engine = while slowly opening Schrader valve.
Jeff
 
From:
Steven W. Boese <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject:
Re: [FlyRotary] = Re: swirl / expansion tank configuration
Date:
Thu, 29 Jan = 2015 19:38:50 +0000
To:
Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
<image001.gif>

<image002.gif>
=E2=80=8BJeff,
In my system, the outlet of the = water pump (high pressure and coolant high level) is connected to the = expansion tank at a location a couple of inches from the bottom of = the tank.  The inlet of the water pump (low pressure and low = coolant level) is connected to the bottom of the expansion tank.  = Both connections to the coolant tank are below the coolant level in the = tank at all times.  With the engine not running, the expansion tank = does not back-fill with coolant even if the expansion tank filler cap is = removed.  In my system, the expansion tank cannot back-fill unless = the volume of the coolant in the rest of the system is increased (by = thermal expansion for example) or air is introduced into that part = of the system.
Steve  
 
This message, and the documents attached hereto, = is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us = immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then = delete the original message. Thank you. <CoolantSystem.jpg><= /span>--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= /div>

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