X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Charlie England" Received: from mail-pa0-f54.google.com ([209.85.220.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c2) with ESMTPS id 7445006 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:32:54 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.54; envelope-from=ceengland7@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id eu11so43196546pac.13 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:32:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=cWkDL6p6Q4m3IldFCuB0VO0b5hJpb0KQgXMIv9AlbZY=; b=FCT80iERiRZ7m4DzWPi7TETbKVwaD8CSepKeg3ifaqUgiIH/kTcS8ygw7DJ53Fc4H/ chCHYF8x9g980hY5LZzKPyL51l+aaRj9ZFshvI+VtOpQbVroElqEaz7pV9DhiEUBINeA PvQodYk8NRHS05nQ04LzLtWQE6HEBIPdKX8RWTNMglgfqVwyim+hWkCJmpZXjIDLAYeP Pk3dIQIuYG5tGtD/4weuH5x6p2Ruvn153WAnEuB85G3JXcVdzrAGUIzN+1N8d+Mt8Ei1 NlJ35QjGvmlDfGyRGwb1D5A10ChDQEnHhVME0tIlz/iCshO1ivlS/YEmxyqSRhQnsD3c bumQ== X-Received: by 10.66.65.195 with SMTP id z3mr3750361pas.10.1422563538578; Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:32:18 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from ?IPv6:2602:306:25fa:a369:dd2:6062:cc11:cd01? ([2602:306:25fa:a369:dd2:6062:cc11:cd01]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ki4sm8627553pdb.34.2015.01.29.12.32.15 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Jan 2015 12:32:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54CA98D9.30402@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:32:25 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: swirl / expansion tank configuration References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030708090704020609030709" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030708090704020609030709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks for the replies. Steve, that's great news on not needing an extra fill point. It'll be a lot easier to drill/tap a 1/8" NPT hole than weld on a fill port. And pressurizing through the overflow port is sheer genius to this limited mind. You've saved me two or three dozen bucks, several ounces of weight, some complexity, and a lot of fabrication hassle. Many thanks! Charlie On 1/29/2015 10:53 AM, Steven W. Boese wrote: > > ​​Charlie and Jeff, > > > If I am seeing things correctly, Charlie's connections to the > expansion tank are both near the bottom of the tank due to the dip > tube attached at 10 o-clock. This is essentially how I have my > expansion tank connected. I installed a Schrader valve at the top of > the thermostat housing which is the highest point in the cooling > system. My entire expansion tank is below the level of the thermostat > housing. When filling the system, I add coolant to the expansion tank > and pressurize it through the overflow port in the filler neck while > opening the Schrader valve. When coolant is expelled from the > Schrader valve, the system is purged of air. A filler cap at the > highest point is not needed. > > > The expansion tank does not back-fill with coolant unless the > filler cap is released and also the Schrader valve is opened. Both > conditions are necessary for the expansion tank to back-fill. > > > Having both the inlet and outlet lines connected below the surface of > the expansion tank is a good thing in my opinion. They just need to be > separated by enough distance that any bubbles can separate upward > rather than be drawn into the outlet line. I keep the inlet line to > the expansion tank restricted for two reasons. One is that coolant > circulating through the expansion tank is bypassing the radiator and > not contributing much to cooling. The other is to limit the pressure > seen in the expansion tank. With a thermostat in the system that is > not fully opened, I see pressures in the thermostat housing on the > water pump side of the thermostat of up to 40 psi at high RPM. > > > With my system, I need at least a quart of air space in the top of the > expansion tank when cold. If the air volume is less than this, the > expansion of the coolant will fill the entire system with liquid when > hot. If there is residual air space in the expansion tank, the > pressure in it will vary continuously with operating temperature. If > the system becomes completely filled with liquid, the pressure is > constant at the relief pressure of the filler cap. > > > That is how my system behaves, for what it is worth. > > > Steve Boese > RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft on > behalf of Jeff Whaley > *Sent:* Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:05 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: swirl / expansion tank configuration > > Charlie, I don’t think your system will work as you expect and I’m > pretty sure it is not the same as the Hanover-Setup. Attached is the > Hanover cooling system diagram … note all the cooling elements > (radiator, hoses, filler bottle) are completely full of glycol > (green); only the expansion tank (approx 1 litre, with stant lever > cap) has room for air, filled only about 1/3. The location of the > expansion tank is shown higher than everything else in the diagram but > can actually be located lower; what is important is the connections be > as shown, i.e., highest point of saturated cooling system connects to > bottom of expansion tank, expansion tank is only 1/3 full and this is > where you install the pressure cap. > > The location of your steam lines to top of expansion tank is correct > but I think with your bottom connection going to pump inlet what will > happens is any portion of the expansion tank lower than highest point > in the system will simply back-fill with coolant and you will no > longer have an expansion tank but rather a coolant tank. I believe > your methodology will work if at least 1/3 of expansion tank is the > highest point in the system. One thing for sure is with the pressure > sensor located on the pump inlet side, you will be measuring the > lowest pressure in the system. > > Jeff > > From: > > > > Charlie England > > Subject: > > > > swirl / expansion tank configuration > > Date: > > > > Wed, 28 Jan 2015 17:57:34 -0600 > > To: > > > > flyrotary > > > > Message Header > > > Undecoded Message > > > I'm setting up the cooling plumbing for the Renesis (RV-7) & wanted to > try the setup used in a lot of current autos, where the 'steam' lines > go to the expansion tank and the coolant in the expansion tank is > constantly pulled back into the input to the water pump. I'm hoping > that this will do a continuous purge, similar to Lynn Hanover's setup > with the extra swirl tank. I couldn't get the swirl/expansion tank > higher than the water pump outlet (highest point of the system), so I > modified the hotrod expansion tank shown, with the hope that when the > system cools, it will be forced to pull only coolant back into the > 'steam' lines. The plan is to collect the steam lines from the > radiator, flywheel end iron, and pump outlet & return them to the port > located at the 10 o'clock position on the tank. > > I'm assuming that I'll need to add a fill port on the pump outlet (top > of engine) and fill from there after partially filling & capping the > expansion tank. Any thoughts/criticisms? > > Charlie > > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for > the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. > Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have > received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that > we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original > message. Thank you. --------------030708090704020609030709 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------050809080003080107080404" --------------050809080003080107080404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thanks for the replies.

Steve, that's great news on not needing an extra fill point. It'll be a lot easier to drill/tap a 1/8" NPT hole than weld on a fill port. And pressurizing through the overflow port is sheer genius to this limited mind. You've saved me two or three dozen bucks, several ounces of weight, some complexity,  and a lot of fabrication hassle.

Many thanks!

Charlie

On 1/29/2015 10:53 AM, Steven W. Boese wrote:

​​Charlie and Jeff,


If I am seeing things correctly, Charlie's connections to the expansion tank are both near the bottom of the tank due to the dip tube attached at 10 o-clock.  This is essentially how I have my expansion tank connected.  I installed a Schrader valve at the top of the thermostat housing which is the highest point in the cooling system.  My entire expansion tank is below the level of the thermostat housing.  When filling the system, I add coolant to the expansion tank and pressurize it through the overflow port in the filler neck while opening the Schrader valve.  When coolant is expelled from the Schrader valve, the system is purged of air.  A filler cap at the highest point is not needed.


The expansion tank does not back-fill with coolant unless the filler cap is released and also the Schrader valve is opened.  Both conditions are necessary for the expansion tank to back-fill.


Having both the inlet and outlet lines connected below the surface of the expansion tank is a good thing in my opinion.  They just need to be separated by enough distance that any bubbles can separate upward rather than be drawn into the outlet line.  I keep the inlet line to the expansion tank restricted for two reasons.  One is that coolant circulating through the expansion tank is bypassing the radiator and not contributing much to cooling.  The other is to limit the pressure seen in the expansion tank.  With a thermostat in the system that is not fully opened, I see pressures in the thermostat housing on the water pump side of the thermostat of up to 40 psi at high RPM.


With my system, I need at least a quart of air space in the top of the expansion tank when cold.  If the air volume is less than this, the expansion of the coolant will fill the entire system with liquid when hot.  If there is residual air space in the expansion tank, the pressure in it will vary continuously with operating temperature.  If the system becomes completely filled with liquid, the pressure is constant at the relief pressure of the filler cap.


That is how my system behaves, for what it is worth.


Steve Boese
RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2
    
From: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> on behalf of Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:05 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: swirl / expansion tank configuration
 

Charlie, I don’t think your system will work as you expect and I’m pretty sure it is not the same as the Hanover-Setup.  Attached is the Hanover cooling system diagram … note all the cooling elements (radiator, hoses, filler bottle) are completely full of glycol (green); only the expansion tank (approx 1 litre, with stant lever cap) has room for air, filled only about 1/3.  The location of the expansion tank is shown higher than everything else in the diagram but can actually be located lower; what is important is the connections be as shown, i.e., highest point of saturated cooling system connects to bottom of expansion tank, expansion tank is only 1/3 full and this is where you install the pressure cap.

 

The location of your steam lines to top of expansion tank is correct but I think with your bottom connection going to pump inlet what will happens is any portion of the expansion tank lower than highest point in the system will simply back-fill with coolant and you will no longer have an expansion tank but rather a coolant tank.  I believe your methodology will work if at least 1/3 of expansion tank is the highest point in the system.  One thing for sure is with the pressure sensor located on the pump inlet side, you will be measuring the lowest pressure in the system.

 

Jeff

From:

Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Subject:

swirl / expansion tank configuration

Date:

Wed, 28 Jan 2015 17:57:34 -0600

To:

flyrotary <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Message Header

Undecoded Message

I'm setting up the cooling plumbing for the Renesis (RV-7) & wanted to try the setup used in a lot of current autos, where the 'steam' lines go to the expansion tank and the coolant in the expansion tank is constantly pulled back into the input to the water pump. I'm hoping that this will do a continuous purge, similar to Lynn Hanover's setup with the extra swirl tank. I couldn't get the swirl/expansion tank higher than the water pump outlet (highest point of the system), so I modified the hotrod expansion tank shown, with the hope that when the system cools, it will be forced to pull only coolant back into the 'steam' lines. The plan is to collect the steam lines from the radiator, flywheel end iron, and pump outlet & return them to the port located at the 10 o'clock position on the tank.

I'm assuming that I'll need to add a fill port on the pump outlet (top of engine) and fill from there after partially filling & capping the expansion tank. Any thoughts/criticisms?

Charlie

 

 

 

 

This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. Thank you.

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