X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "James R. Osborn" Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com ([209.85.220.49] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.1c2) with ESMTPS id 7437911 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 16:24:00 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.220.49; envelope-from=rxcited@gmail.com Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id fa1so14103395pad.8 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 13:23:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to; bh=pYu6+sEL26wrYPiphJ8BnXqnLTOvmz7iRm+07eQO6dc=; b=zEfSu3OGDI+BxjQfzaU3wC/HJkvOhyJ4uh8yIKeUXOU72/oEbHUMJ3T+JjLlvfYBhH Gs2WkGoFoJGOSELfFHBYoeZaT1anzTWgzKjsnPGksI0aCpO/LWW332SLJallvXVVj+3I IbsHqwZ/4PBHLG1/xEbaIN6VV4iSKXvLLsbErIlW2M6XPvZwYEhmLDrSgJud6wmQ6OOA aO8tTpnixSlRXh2PPQKis1HzZ3WpbsAjo8Ighub9X+W7QXr+PNtaWqWSv6yruBqaTKDZ nGmgtQ6SELdWnLL6BAoz+I3YD45KWfx0G7wQvcrGtUmCN4K8bgiogCDd94asLk7A8mm8 enAw== X-Received: by 10.68.65.103 with SMTP id w7mr37617519pbs.25.1422307407697; Mon, 26 Jan 2015 13:23:27 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from jrosborn-m76.lbl.gov (jrosborn-m76.lbl.gov. [128.3.128.169]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id c9sm10575986pdm.51.2015.01.26.13.23.26 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Jan 2015 13:23:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_48C2AC7C-661E-4C1D-A8EE-9F47CD4C666C" Message-Id: <8310F420-73F0-4060-AB07-E2A402C29C89@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.1 \(1993\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] My next engine Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2015 13:23:25 -0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1993) --Apple-Mail=_48C2AC7C-661E-4C1D-A8EE-9F47CD4C666C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I agree with Ernie. However I don=E2=80=99t think it is PEAK pressure = in the exhaust chamber as it is most of the way through the expansion = stroke by the time the apex seal crosses the plug hole - the exhaust = port is about to open whether it is a side port (rx8) or peripheral port = (rx7). It is probably higher pressure than the intake chamber, but not = by a whole lot. I think the way it is currently implemented (as a hole rather than a = slot) leads to some EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) which isn=E2=80=99t = supposed to be a bad thing, at least for emissions. I imagine however = that the bad thing about making it a slot is it would be more difficult = for the F/A mixture to get into the spark plug antechamber, and it also = might affect the flame front propagation out of the antechamber. Both = of these things would be bad for a rotary, IMHO. =E2=80=94 James > On Jan 26, 2015, at 6:02 AM, Ernest Christley = wrote: >=20 > You are correct, Jeff. That is what he is saying. The problem is, he = is wrong. When the apex seal is crossing the plug hole, there is no = compression on the intake side yet (it's actually below ambient for an = NA engine) and the exhaust side is at it's most extreme pressure. Look = at the volume of the chambers. The intake side has just finished = pulling F/A mixture in, the exhaust side has been ignited and is = providing the power pulse. If anything, some burnt mixture from the = previous burn is going to be pushed BACK into the upcoming one. =20 >=20 > In fact, providing more of a slot might just blow the F/A mixture away = from the apex seal and solve half of the quenching problem. >=20 >=20 > On Monday, January 26, 2015 8:50 AM, Jeff Whaley = > = wrote: >=20 >=20 > What he=E2=80=99s saying is the spark plug holes inside the rotor = housing are too large (much larger than apex seal width) so at peak = compression and just prior to combustion, a percentage of compressed = air/fuel mixture enters the spark plug hole and leaks ahead of the apex = seal into the exhaust cycle, creating spontaneous combustion in the = exhaust and higher exhaust temperature. His theory is if the holes were = slots, similar in width to an apex seal this would stop any leakage into = the exhaust cycle =E2=80=93 more complete combustion =3D higher = efficiency =E2=80=93 don=E2=80=99t put air fuel into the exhaust for = spontaneous combustion. > Jeff=20 > =20 > From: > Bill Bradburry > > Subject: > RE: [FlyRotary] My next engine > Date: > Sat, 24 Jan 2015 23:03:22 -0600 > To: > 'Rotary motors in aircraft' > > >=20 > > What is the consensus about these slots? >=20 > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dm3pCLjHZmhM = >=20 >=20 > Bill=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net = ]=20 > Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 7:59 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] My next engine >=20 > Folks, >=20 > R12 12 Rotor Engine on the Dyno short version >=20 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DQcgg7w6TFQc = >=20 > Bob Tilley >=20 > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html = > =20 > This message, and the documents attached hereto, is intended only for = the addressee and may contain privileged or confidential information. = Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this message in error, please notify us immediately so that we may = correct our internal records. Please then delete the original message. = Thank you. --Apple-Mail=_48C2AC7C-661E-4C1D-A8EE-9F47CD4C666C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I agree with Ernie.  However I don=E2=80=99t think it is = PEAK pressure in the exhaust chamber as it is most of the way through = the expansion stroke by the time the apex seal crosses the plug hole - = the exhaust port is about to open whether it is a side port (rx8) or = peripheral port (rx7).  It is probably higher pressure than the = intake chamber, but not by a whole lot.

I think the way it is currently = implemented (as a hole rather than a slot) leads to some EGR (exhaust = gas recirculation) which isn=E2=80=99t supposed to be a bad thing, at = least for emissions.  I imagine however that the bad thing about = making it a slot is it would be more difficult for the F/A mixture to = get into the spark plug antechamber, and it also might affect the flame = front propagation out of the antechamber.  Both of these things = would be bad for a rotary, IMHO.

=E2=80=94 James


On Jan 26, 2015, at 6:02 AM, Ernest Christley = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

You are = correct, Jeff.  That is what he is saying.  The problem is, he = is wrong.  When the apex seal is crossing the plug hole, there is = no compression on the intake side yet (it's actually below ambient for = an NA engine) and the exhaust side is at it's most extreme = pressure.  Look at the volume of the chambers.  The intake = side has just finished pulling F/A mixture in, the exhaust side has been = ignited and is providing the power pulse.  If anything, some burnt = mixture from the previous burn is going to be pushed BACK into the = upcoming one.  

In fact, = providing more of a slot might just blow the F/A mixture away from the = apex seal and solve half of the quenching problem.


On Monday, January 26, 2015 8:50 AM, Jeff Whaley <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


What he=E2=80=99s = saying is the spark plug holes inside the rotor housing are too large = (much larger than apex seal width) so at peak compression and just prior = to combustion, a percentage of compressed air/fuel mixture enters the = spark plug hole and leaks ahead of the apex seal into the exhaust cycle, = creating spontaneous combustion in the exhaust and higher exhaust = temperature.  His theory is if the holes were slots, similar in = width to an apex seal this would stop any leakage into the exhaust cycle = =E2=80=93 more complete combustion =3D higher efficiency =E2=80=93 = don=E2=80=99t put air fuel into the exhaust for spontaneous = combustion.
Jeff 
 
From:
Bill = Bradburry <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject:
RE: [FlyRotary] My = next engine
Date:
Sat, = 24 Jan 2015 23:03:22 -0600
To:
'Rotary motors in aircraft' <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
3D"Message

3D"Undecoded
What is the consensus about these = slots?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dm3pCLjHZmhM


Bill 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
Sent: Saturday, January = 24, 2015 7:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] My = next engine

Folks,

R12 12 Rotor Engine on = the Dyno short version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DQcgg7w6TFQc

Bob Tilley

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:
http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html<= /tt>
 
This message, and the documents attached = hereto, is intended only for the addressee and may contain privileged or = confidential information. Any unauthorized disclosure is strictly = prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us = immediately so that we may correct our internal records. Please then = delete the original message. Thank = you.
= --Apple-Mail=_48C2AC7C-661E-4C1D-A8EE-9F47CD4C666C--