X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "William Schertz" Received: from mail-ie0-f180.google.com ([209.85.223.180] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.10) with ESMTPS id 7253484 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:36:03 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.223.180; envelope-from=wschertz343@gmail.com Received: by mail-ie0-f180.google.com with SMTP id y20so7835626ier.11 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2014 07:35:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:mime-version :content-type:importance; bh=WR9RrhxEEETWEhS3PUqJAbSeLL0u71jMfa+OOhgstA4=; b=hB5K29ODLF4SMMx4tHJWKiWomvcIkuwrWB00BTFn9X+hFqbJNgknSP9yxzCFEunEU9 oI0Z+mMSuUju+RUrfV7h6VQe+gJtCrAEqDvkj4iehnm21EEatE45qKUm4gN6nNl8kbsN tbxOnV4t1YRp5eOnxTJyTalN7uPHuJ6yF5BlPsWdUw6fDYEJBeEZeHUVsO6Q0tlQZnHZ ynmecyLzyauR3T+bOEfLMJuHgQHp7JnTkuZ8dFbuMNAkSnatULiBvuPM40yTFCbBalzK DthXlr7wCDAjCBMVxJyyT59/IomdomRIwvCPLiq7RopfxUeJ9foQ4Mtn2ZN3JLOIAYKj YilA== X-Received: by 10.50.3.97 with SMTP id b1mr24751801igb.12.1415115327326; Tue, 04 Nov 2014 07:35:27 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from OwnerPC (host-184-166-77-245.msl-mt.client.bresnan.net. [184.166.77.245]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id b32sm296447ioj.26.2014.11.04.07.35.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Nov 2014 07:35:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <06E63FA535294218AAF957BDFD43D0D5@OwnerPC> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: SPAM-LOW: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rotary Engine & Fuel Valves Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 08:35:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C2_01CFF80A.3BD88240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 15.4.3538.513 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V15.4.3538.513 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01CFF80A.3BD88240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A cautionary note with this system. An early builder of the KIS-2place = low wing plane substituted a Cessna L-R-Both_off valve for the L-R-off = valve supplied with the kit. He did this because he felt it would be = safer for his less experienced son who would not have to remember to = switch tanks. During the test flight portion of flying off the hours, he = discovered that while on both, one tank ran dry =E2=80=93 he switched to = the tank with fuel and found that it would not feed and he made a engine = out crosswind landing on the nearest runway, ran off the runway and = damaged the wing, had to rebuild it. Apparently the pump lost its prime and would not feed from the full = tank. Bill Schertz From: Al Wick=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 8:16 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SPAM-LOW: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rotary Engine & = Fuel Valves What an excellent analysis. Assume failures others have had will happen = to you, design accordingly.=20 -Al Wick -------- Original message -------- From: Thomas Mann=20 Date:11/04/2014 6:12 AM (GMT-08:00)=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SPAM-LOW: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rotary Engine & = Fuel Valves=20 If you are going to use a common feed system, the best way to do it is = via a Left/Right/Both/Off type selector valve. With that system if you are running on =E2=80=9CBoth=E2=80=9D and you = have an uneven feed, it=E2=80=99s easy to resolve, just switch to the = fullest tank. More important is the missing fuel cap scenario. Most aircraft have a = vent tube that is situated is such a manner that it works like a little = ram air scoop to force air into the vent system.=20 Most pilots think that when you loose a fuel tank cap, the fuel is = sucked out =E2=80=A6.. not so. What happens is the fuel tank without the = cap fails to pressurize the way the fuel tank with the cap does. As such = (in a =E2=80=9CT=E2=80=9D or common feed system) the higher pressure = tank begins to push the fuel into the lower pressure tank. Of course = with no fuel cap, the low pressure tank overfills an the excess fuel = goes overboard. Once the last of the fuel passes the common junction, you have fuel = starvation and one full tank of fuel that you cannot access. In a system = with the described selector valve, selecting between individual tanks = would make this a non-event. If you were running on = =E2=80=9CBoth=E2=80=9D you could empty the high pressure side but once = it started sputtering you could be back in business by switching to the = full tank (with no cap) and would still be able to access that fuel. Just something to consider. I just picked up n airplane this past spring = that had a common sump system. The first thing I did was convert it to = the system I described above. The owner said it didn=E2=80=99t feed from = the wing tanks evenly and he would have to land sometimes to let the = fuel settle out to an even level then press on. This selector valve = setup allows you to correct the issue in the air. T Mann Sent from Windows Mail ------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01CFF80A.3BD88240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A cautionary note with this system. An early builder of the = KIS-2place low=20 wing plane substituted a Cessna L-R-Both_off valve for the L-R-off valve = supplied with the kit. He did this because he felt it would be safer for = his=20 less experienced son who would not have to remember to switch tanks. = During the=20 test flight portion of flying off the hours, he discovered that while on = both,=20 one tank ran dry =E2=80=93 he switched to the tank with fuel and found = that it would not=20 feed and he made a engine out crosswind landing on the nearest runway, = ran off=20 the runway and damaged the wing, had to rebuild it.
 
Apparently the pump lost its prime and would not feed from the full = tank.
Bill Schertz
 
From: Al Wick
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 8:16 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SPAM-LOW: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Rotary Engine=20 & Fuel Valves
 
What an excellent analysis. Assume failures others have had will = happen to=20 you, design accordingly.
 
 
-Al Wick

-------- Original message --------
From: Thomas Mann
Date:11/04/2014 6:12 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: SPAM-LOW: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rotary = Engine &=20 Fuel Valves
 
If you are going to use a common feed = system, the=20 best way to do it is via a Left/Right/Both/Off type selector = valve.
With that system if you are running on = =E2=80=9CBoth=E2=80=9D and=20 you have an uneven feed, it=E2=80=99s easy to resolve, just switch to = the fullest=20 tank.
 
More important is the missing fuel cap = scenario.=20 Most aircraft have a vent tube that is situated is such a manner that it = works=20 like a little ram air scoop to force air into the vent system.
 
Most pilots think that when you loose a = fuel tank=20 cap, the fuel is sucked out =E2=80=A6.. not so. What happens is the fuel = tank without=20 the cap fails to pressurize the way the fuel tank with the cap does. As = such (in=20 a =E2=80=9CT=E2=80=9D or common feed system) the higher pressure tank = begins to push the fuel=20 into the lower pressure tank. Of course with no fuel cap, the low = pressure tank=20 overfills an the excess fuel goes overboard.
 
Once the last of the fuel passes the = common=20 junction, you have fuel starvation and one full tank of fuel that you = cannot=20 access. In a system with the described selector valve, selecting between = individual tanks would make this a non-event. If you were running on = =E2=80=9CBoth=E2=80=9D you=20 could empty the high pressure side but once it started sputtering you = could be=20 back in business by switching to the full tank (with no cap) and would = still be=20 able to access that fuel.
 
Just something to consider. I just picked = up n=20 airplane this past spring that had a common sump system. The first thing = I did=20 was convert it to the system I described above. The owner said it = didn=E2=80=99t feed=20 from the wing tanks evenly and he would have to land sometimes to let = the fuel=20 settle out to an even level then press on. This selector valve setup = allows you=20 to correct the issue in the air.
 
T Mann
 
Sent from Windows Mail
 
 
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