X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com From: "Ernest Christley" Received: from nm19-vm3.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([216.39.63.77] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.10) with ESMTPS id 7253252 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 04 Nov 2014 09:02:33 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=216.39.63.77; envelope-from=echristley@att.net Received: from [216.39.60.173] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2014 14:01:59 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.244] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2014 14:01:59 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1015.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Nov 2014 14:01:59 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 944677.63338.bm@omp1015.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 96318 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Nov 2014 14:01:59 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=att.net; s=s1024; t=1415109719; bh=AhwAzSyWOzdvZUtuCrAMQEjkyP1jV10pJRiO0rLp/eI=; h=References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Hppwl7DLQBzV7T9rtYq3y0R0w+X8rWlDesBm8+evb31VIpGtqQGPfy93kBchPR4I6m6YyCyks+Q1GfVbc97lcxLWQOqz6rR2eXB2QwS0gJR97m0bi9NX7OJrJj01jVGyZQ533u2hShBXdSMPE/7nza+YHcXJ9Z3B2o7RPwIpmIQ= X-YMail-OSG: MgG.rJcVM1lkPhKm5faxHXSecOHy1CPyPgLrlfQalPir0Y1 vmG505jNQKrbEgJoF_PhKnX3QJ0G1goUvjSl0.qaK3B.y8AVWlK1vxWU6IlP rJaylLGYOY7dJNJJLX4mM8Sxhb_ouG6Y9S3pP9hlQolVualpWyEAFvMTj08r R1pdkPfgw683e96w3CuGmWUxOm1HitpNF2VAYjdU_l7LkeJpnrP5nPCNJKsY NEncp1SRb2tHlxwrz2hkFiSDgzZw5tpXaHzhWbtx85qv94_SE9n.I.6pTaDQ 0NbWnahF2gGVMseRECT64w2nBp_RKlEvLhxickHMDINqjCPjN_iMS.mba3Pa xXAMzXfvRywK7.3N_6qLi500X6POZxnB5bkqaPg2l.DHb3Vx0rOBaLTvrSJg PTAWhCHTTBTqqfyjIhGyoHgQNhWL09BksP6XIFriKsmGIBaT.SFr5NYElc5P .cQ8uMHHw4x4pJZH8j6DvcwJRQM7A4xb6PhSLw.NjgiwZAdCy6nYhMKrcJyz 4ogleFhhRDqJU.xy1uobHH4CyXGkSPjd3WFa790zAK1lgBsgWVuaxyDRAtvL yz2yYI_Zi1HmZL3e.ugBsXR5Xwg.j8BVaXRJaHAGfW5xT6I54OUTl6WxafHq ByP2M_Xc4ABM15emJ4g-- Received: from [67.202.75.10] by web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 04 Nov 2014 06:01:59 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SSd2ZSBzZXR0bGVkIG9uIGEgZGVzaWduIHRoYXQgdXNlcyBhIHBvc2l0aXZlIGN1dC1vZmYgdHJhbnNmZXIgcHVtcCB0byBwdWxsIGZyb20gYW4gQVVYIHRvIGEgTUFJTiB0YW5rLiAgQW4gZW1lcmdlbmN5IGNyb3Nzb3ZlciB2YWx2ZSB3aWxsIGFsbG93IGFjY2VzcyB0byB0aGUgQVVYIHRhbmsgZnVlbCBpbiBjYXNlIG9mIGEgdHJhbnNmZXIgcHVtcCBmYWlsdXJlLiAgVHdvIDItcHNpIHB1bXBzLCBhZnRlciB0aGUgZ2FzY29sYXRvciwgaW4gcGFyYWxsZWwgYW5kIHdpdGggYmFjay1mbG93IHByZXZlbnRpb24BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.733 References: Message-ID: <1415109719.32767.YahooMailNeo@web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2014 06:01:59 -0800 Reply-To: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Rotary Engine & Fuel Valves To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1885600119-1231273041-1415109719=:32767" --1885600119-1231273041-1415109719=:32767 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've settled on a design that uses a positive cut-off transfer pump to pull from an AUX to a MAIN tank. An emergency crossover valve will allow access to the AUX tank fuel in case of a transfer pump failure. Two 2-psi pumps, after the gascolator, in parallel and with back-flow prevention provide redundancy to push the fuel through individual filters and up to the top of the firewall, where a Holley float bowl will meter the fuel and provide a reservoir for the head pressure and smooth flow needed to by the AeroVee carb. I'm still analyzing it, but I think it is a really simple and safe design. It's not a rotary, but as always the open, non-theocratic helpfulness of this group is simply amazing compared to just about every other discussion group I've ever been a part of. I'll have a safer airplane, because of the discussions I have here. On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:05 AM, Mark McClure wrote: I'm a huge fan of the transfer pump method. But I think this would depend on your tank setup. For me building a Glasair I have a single wing tank and a header tank. The header is a perfect reserve fuel tank. One hours worth of flying. Easy plumbing dumps that into the main and you are off. (Gravity or xfer pump) As for a T valve for low wing aircraft. I have flown behind a turbine low wing with a T. Fuel splits were not that common as long as the aircraft was flown in balance. And if you wanted to pull from one vs the other to get rid of an unbalance you just let ball go out. Mark McClure On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Charlie England wrote: On 10/31/2014 8:09 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: > > >> >> >> >> >>On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:57 AM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> >>>But...Didn't you mention 6psi fuel pressure? If that's correct, then why have a return line at all? If it's a carb engine, >>>just use Facet 'solid state' (interrupter style) pumps. No return line needed. >> >> Good point, Charlie, but the engine came with one of those AeroVee carbs on it. It's basically a throttle body with a drip feed for fuel. It gets upset with more that 2psi of pressure, and there are very few regulators that are accurate down that low. They're basically designed to be gravity fed, and the 601XL doesn't have a header tank. >> >>I'm now seriously considering the transfer pump configuration. Now that I've been reminded, I remember that Tracy has been flying with that setup for years. I've got to think about it more. >> >> >> But what can you use for a bypass style regulator that's accurate at 2 psi, anyway? > >Facet makes cube ('solid state') pumps rated as low as 2.0 psi max. Here's a list; the window scrolls for more models. > >http://www.facet-purolator.com/cube-fuel-pumps.php > >That page mentions 'optional check valve' (CV) but doesn't explain the PSO column. That's basically a 'positive shutoff' or anti-siphon that prevents fuel from flowing through the pump if it's not running. Whether you want that depends on how you plumb the installation. 2 in parallel, you could potentially eliminate valves. 2 in series, twice the pressure but no flow unless both are running. The .pdf link in the page has a better description. > > --1885600119-1231273041-1415109719=:32767 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I've settled on a design that uses a positive cut-off transfer pump to pull from an AUX to a MAIN tank.  An emergency crossover valve will allow access to the AUX tank fuel in case of a transfer pump failure.  Two 2-psi pumps, after the gascolator, in parallel and with back-flow prevention provide redundancy to push the fuel through individual filters and up to the top of the firewall, where a Holley float bowl will meter the fuel and provide a reservoir for the head pressure and smooth flow needed to by the AeroVee carb.  I'm still analyzing it, but I think it is a really simple and safe design.

It's not a rotary, but as always the open, non-theocratic helpfulness of this group is simply amazing compared to just about every other discussion group I've ever been a part of.  I'll have a safer airplane, because of the discussions I have here.


On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 6:05 AM, Mark McClure <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:


I'm a huge fan of the transfer pump method. But I think this would depend on your tank setup. For me building a Glasair I have a single wing tank and a header tank. The header is a perfect reserve fuel tank.  One hours worth of flying. Easy plumbing dumps that into the main and you are off. (Gravity or xfer pump) 

As for a T valve for low wing aircraft. I have flown behind a turbine low wing with a T.  Fuel splits were not that common as long as the aircraft was flown in balance. And if you wanted to pull from one vs the other to get rid of an unbalance you just let ball go out. 

Mark McClure



On Oct 31, 2014, at 9:54 AM, Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:09 AM, Ernest Christley wrote:



On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:57 AM, Charlie England <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> wrote:

>But...Didn't you mention 6psi fuel pressure? If that's correct, then why have a return line at all? If it's a carb engine,
>just use Facet 'solid state' (interrupter style) pumps. No return line needed.

Good point, Charlie, but the engine came with one of those AeroVee carbs on it.  It's basically a throttle body with a drip feed for fuel.  It gets upset with more that 2psi of pressure, and there are very few regulators that are accurate down that low.  They're basically designed to be gravity fed, and the 601XL doesn't have a header tank.

I'm now seriously considering the transfer pump configuration.  Now that I've been reminded, I remember that Tracy has been flying with that setup for years.  I've got to think about it more.


But what can you use for a bypass style regulator that's accurate at 2 psi, anyway?

Facet makes cube ('solid state') pumps rated as low as 2.0 psi max. Here's a list; the window scrolls for more models.

http://www.facet-purolator.com/cube-fuel-pumps.php

That page mentions 'optional check valve' (CV) but doesn't explain the PSO column. That's basically a 'positive shutoff' or anti-siphon that prevents fuel from flowing through the pump if it's not running. Whether you want that depends on how you plumb the installation. 2 in parallel, you could potentially eliminate valves. 2 in series, twice the pressure but no flow unless both are running. The .pdf link in the page has a better description.



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