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[124.149.75.253]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id op3sm30691239pbc.40.2014.04.27.16.37.58 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Stephen Izett From: Stephen Izett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7AA74DBD-ADB3-4220-BAF2-36740DF7DE97" Message-Id: <0F3F616F-EE73-4EDB-AAAA-F8549FC5A736@icloud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2014 07:37:55 +0800 References: To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) --Apple-Mail=_7AA74DBD-ADB3-4220-BAF2-36740DF7DE97 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Scott Thanks for continuing to keep us updated. I=92m hoping to be where you are within the year so very much appreciate = the data.\ Being so overpropped I would have thought makes testing the NA set-up = impractical.=20 How much horsepower are you seeing do you think at 5400rpm ? Can you borrow a more appropriate prop for a test run and so get into = your real horsepower? Cheers Steve Izett Building Glasair SIIRG Renesis On 28 Apr 2014, at 4:29 am, shipchief@aol.com wrote: > I flew about 45 minutes the next day. The engine and plane fly fine. I = now have 25 flights on the RV-8. Unfortunately, the power lost to the = removal of the turbo is significant. I've lost about 40 MPH of top = speed! I hadn't opened up the throttle above 37" manifold pressure for = take off, nor about 34" MP at any flight above 4000ft., so I don't yet = know what the turbo was capable of providing. > I plan to build an exhaust manifold incorporating a wastegate that has = minimal throttling loss when open. I also want to switch from using an = 'On-Center' turbine housing to the more efficient tangent style. If I = put such a turbine on my existing manifold, the turbo would be touching = the cowl. The added benefit of the tangential housing is the V band = clamp exhaust coupling, which is easier to fit & align an exhaust = downpipe. I would hope to fit the muffler inside the cowl, the drag = penalty of an underslung muffler must be great. > I noticed the engine won't start when the EC-2 mode 8 timing is set to = +10. I don't know the reason, perhaps the coil dwell is effected or = something. When I reset to the default '0', it starts right up, so I'm = running it @ +3 which starts & runs fine, and is 23BTDC. I'll try = switching from 92 to 87 octane ethanol free mogas, and then bump the = timing up to 25 if it improves performance and or decreases exhaust = temps. > =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Emery > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 1:21 pm > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not >=20 > A quick note from the airport: > I reset timing to 23 BTDC and groomed the injection table for low RPM.=20= > I'm over propped, but I did fly again, with much better results. = Smooth engine again (Mazda goes Hummm). > After I got up to pattern altitude and gained speed over 120mph, climb = rate increased to about 1000fpm. After level off @ 2000' speed increased = to over 170mph. I quickly re-entered the pattern & landed due to a rain = squall headed toward the field. > 4375 RPM Static, about 5400rpm @ 170 mph. Fuel burn: about 10.8 gph. >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:19 AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> OK, I searched the archive, Brian Trubee posted 22-23 BTDC as the = correct timing for naturally aspirated operation, so I'll back off the = Mode 8 timing to 22 BTDC and test for Static RPM before the next flight. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: shipchief >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Mon, Apr 21, 2014 10:05 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not >>=20 >> Thanks Dave; >> I may end up reinstalling the turbo soon. I use a water cooled = bearing, I think the exhaust housing is the only damaged part. >> My exhaust manifold has no sign of stress or damage, I'm looking for = a way to add a waste gate, not ruin the existing manifold, and fit it = around the Fred Breese mount... >> Today I completed the transformation to Non-Turbo operation. I = replaced the turbo with a cast stainless steel elbow and a Aircraft = Spruce 321 SS Ball/Swivel joint and cut/welded to fit the old turbo down = pipe. I made up sheet metal heat shields with some blast cooling on the = elbow to be on the safe side. >> I checked my maintenance log, and noted that timing had been set @ = 18 BTDC, with a EM-2 setting of -2. So I started the engine and advanced = the timing to +10, for 30 BTDC. at low RPM, the advance seemed to make = the engine run better. >> With the CATTO prop I'm using, I could only get 4370 RPM static. I = could easily blow thru 4900 static with the turbo. I did a few dry run = take-offs with good general engine behavior, so I gave it a flight. RPM = increased slightly to about 4400 once I started the take off roll. I = took off late & climbed anemically. about like a Cessna 172. I noticed = some hiccups even though I was fine adjusting the mixture and watching = the O2 sensor output. EGT typically ran 1450 for the take off, and in = the 1650 range for most of the flight, with some 1730F in there too. It = never ran smoothly like it has at low power before. I wonder, what = should the timing be for naturally aspirated? I thought it's supposed to = be 35 BTDC? I set it initially to the turbo setting (19 BTDC) with a = timing light at 4000 RPM as per the manual. I didn't quite hit the 19 = BTDC in the manual, figuring to err on the side of safety, and add = advance later. >> So could the hiccupping be retarded or advanced timing, or a semi = fouled plug? I didn't expect the non-turbo version to be so weak. The = full throttle fuel flow on the EM-3 was about 8.5 GPH, which is only = about 100 HP, based on the simple 100HP =3D 8GPH fuel flow rule of = thumb. This was about 5100+ RPM and about 150 MPH @ 2000ft MSL. >> 14 hours flight time, 26 to go... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Leonard >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Mon, Apr 14, 2014 8:46 am >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not >>=20 >> If you want to return to the tubo, consider a water cooled housing = like the stock. Mine is a modified stock housing with a TO4 turbine but = still retains the water cooling. If I am not careful with EGTs I can = still melt the turbine blades, but the housing has held up very well. I = also use the stock heat shields. >>=20 >> Nothing like having the extra power! >>=20 >> David Leonard >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:51 PM, wrote: >> I went out to the Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the = intercooler. Well, at least to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up = some parts and make plans. >> As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed the = whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the turbine = housing! >> I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tight. >> So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably = cooked the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's = worse, I had a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been = better, so some cooling air could pass over the housing, but still block = radiant heat. >> Bummer. >> So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube bends to = switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust header = that the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past the bottom = of the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently added. >> I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become = curious about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of = 'Naturally Aspirated'. >> I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The = exhaust won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better = than the stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port = discharge nozzles (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping = shape. Plus it's proven strong while carrying the weight of the turbo = beyond 1800F, and it passed inspection. I trust it. >> So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel = consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas = instead of 92. (low compression rotors) >> Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. =20 >> Anyone see a problem or have advise? >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_7AA74DBD-ADB3-4220-BAF2-36740DF7DE97 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Scott

Thanks for continuing to = keep us updated.
I=92m hoping to be where you are within the = year so very much appreciate the data.\
Being so overpropped I = would have thought makes testing the NA set-up = impractical. 
How much horsepower are you seeing do you = think at 5400rpm ?
Can you borrow a more appropriate prop for = a test run and so get into your real = horsepower?

Cheers

Steve= Izett
Building Glasair SIIRG = Renesis

On 28 Apr 2014, at 4:29 am, shipchief@aol.com wrote:

I flew about 45 minutes the next day. The engine and plane fly = fine. I now have 25 flights on the RV-8. Unfortunately, the power lost = to the removal of the turbo is significant. I've lost about 40 MPH of = top speed!  I hadn't opened up the throttle above 37" manifold = pressure for take off, nor about 34" MP at any flight above 4000ft., so = I don't yet know what the turbo was capable of providing.
I plan to build an exhaust manifold incorporating a wastegate = that has minimal throttling loss when open. I also want to switch from = using an 'On-Center' turbine housing to the more efficient tangent = style. If I put such a turbine on my existing manifold, the turbo would = be touching the cowl. The added benefit of the tangential housing is the = V band clamp exhaust coupling, which is easier to fit & align an = exhaust downpipe. I would hope to fit the muffler inside the cowl, the = drag penalty of an underslung muffler must be great.
I noticed the engine won't start when the EC-2 mode 8 timing is set = to +10. I don't know the reason, perhaps the coil dwell is effected or = something. When I reset to the default '0', it starts right up, so I'm = running it @ +3 which starts & runs fine, and is 23BTDC. I'll try = switching from 92 to 87 octane ethanol free mogas, and then bump = the timing up to 25 if it improves performance and or decreases exhaust = temps.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Emery <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 1:21 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not

A quick note from the airport:
I reset timing to 23 BTDC and groomed the injection table for low = RPM. 
I'm over propped, but I did fly again, with much better results. = Smooth engine again (Mazda goes Hummm).
After I got up to pattern altitude and gained speed over 120mph, = climb rate increased to about 1000fpm. After level off @ 2000' speed = increased to over 170mph. I quickly re-entered the pattern & landed = due to a rain squall headed toward the field.
4375 RPM Static, about 5400rpm @ 170 mph. Fuel burn: about 10.8 = gph.

Sent from my iPhone
OK, I searched the archive, Brian Trubee posted 22-23 BTDC as the = correct timing for naturally aspirated operation, so I'll back off the = Mode 8 timing to 22 BTDC and test for Static RPM before the next = flight.
-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Apr 21, 2014 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not

Thanks Dave;
I may end up reinstalling the turbo soon. I use a water cooled = bearing, I think the exhaust housing is the only damaged part.
My exhaust manifold has no sign of stress or damage, I'm looking = for a way to add a waste gate, not ruin the existing manifold, and = fit it around the Fred Breese mount...
Today I completed the transformation to Non-Turbo operation. = I replaced the turbo with a cast stainless steel elbow and a = Aircraft Spruce 321 SS Ball/Swivel joint and cut/welded to fit the old = turbo down pipe. I made up sheet metal heat shields with some blast = cooling on the elbow to be on the safe side.
 I checked my maintenance log, and noted that timing had been = set @ 18 BTDC, with a EM-2 setting of -2. So I started the engine and = advanced the timing to +10, for 30 BTDC. at low RPM, the advance seemed = to make the engine run better.
With the CATTO prop I'm using, I could only get 4370 RPM static. I = could easily blow thru 4900 static with the turbo. I did a few dry = run take-offs with good general engine behavior, so I gave it a flight. = RPM increased slightly to about 4400 once I started the take off roll. I = took off late & climbed anemically. about like a Cessna 172. I = noticed some hiccups even though I was fine adjusting the mixture and = watching the O2 sensor output. EGT typically ran 1450 for the take off, = and in the 1650 range for most of  the flight, with some 1730F in = there too. It never ran smoothly like it has at low power before. I = wonder, what should the timing be for naturally aspirated? I thought = it's supposed to be 35 BTDC? I set it initially to the turbo setting (19 = BTDC) with a timing light at 4000 RPM as per the manual. I didn't = quite hit the 19 BTDC in the manual, figuring to err on the side of = safety, and add advance later.
So could the hiccupping be retarded or advanced timing, or a semi = fouled plug? I didn't expect the non-turbo version to be so weak. The = full throttle fuel flow on the EM-3 was about 8.5 GPH, which is only = about 100 HP, based on the simple 100HP =3D 8GPH fuel flow rule of = thumb. This was about 5100+ RPM and about 150 MPH @ 2000ft MSL.
14 hours flight time, 26 to go...
-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Apr 14, 2014 8:46 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not

If you want to return to the tubo, consider a water = cooled housing like the stock.  Mine is a modified stock housing = with a TO4 turbine but still retains the water cooling.  If I am = not careful with EGTs I can still melt the turbine blades, but the = housing has held up very well.  I also use the stock heat shields.

Nothing like having the extra power!

David Leonard




On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:51 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> = wrote:
I went out to the = Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the intercooler. Well, at least = to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts and make = plans.
As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed the = whole turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the = turbine housing!
I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tight. =
So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably = cooked the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's = worse, I had a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been = better, so some cooling air could pass over the housing, but = still block radiant heat.
Bummer.
So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube bends = to switch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust = header that the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past = the bottom of the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently = added.
I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become = curious about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of = 'Naturally Aspirated'.
I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The = exhaust won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better = than the stock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port = discharge nozzles (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping = shape. Plus it's proven strong while carrying the weight of the turbo = beyond 1800F, and it passed inspection. I trust it.
So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel = consumption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas = instead of 92. (low compression rotors)
Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec.  
Anyone see a problem or have advise?

= --Apple-Mail=_7AA74DBD-ADB3-4220-BAF2-36740DF7DE97--