X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-m07.mx.aol.com ([64.12.143.81] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.9e) with ESMTPS id 6849090 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:29:45 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.143.81; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaomg-mcc01.mx.aol.com (mtaomg-mcc01.mx.aol.com [172.26.253.85]) by omr-m07.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id D8B7D7003545A for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from core-aca06c.mail.aol.com (core-aca06.mail.aol.com [172.27.9.6]) by mtaomg-mcc01.mx.aol.com (OMAG/Core Interface) with ESMTP id A900338000085 for ; Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: shipchief@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8D1306E7AE74EAF_222C_61F17_webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail STANDARD Received: from 72.171.16.60 by webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com (205.188.252.84) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:29:10 -0400 Message-Id: <8D1306E7AE74EAF-222C-1B580@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> X-Originating-IP: [72.171.16.60] Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:29:10 -0400 (EDT) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1398630550; bh=btDNJ4B99ssqSx6pk7xliQsKizFSRLKnKp2lmS1ciPY=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Xcu6ARNyXb77cJWAKIgEkLbnbVSUi/im8lXsDTB4S0jGy6VL5FJcXkZ7rlvkE/uk8 RnwaPESjM9DujqHcTD9Tr9tZcVJRWVSOKZPozzjYhjDxF8FLMH4PUt8dAvuPT8HPHr 3dxTi1xqvzmzHXzCUmFqcKqwKVbsr4wIZO2cPzGg= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afd55535d68962f8e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----------MB_8D1306E7AE74EAF_222C_61F17_webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I flew about 45 minutes the next day. The engine and plane fly fine. I now = have 25 flights on the RV-8. Unfortunately, the power lost to the removal o= f the turbo is significant. I've lost about 40 MPH of top speed! I hadn't = opened up the throttle above 37" manifold pressure for take off, nor about = 34" MP at any flight above 4000ft., so I don't yet know what the turbo was = capable of providing. I plan to build an exhaust manifold incorporating a wastegate that has mini= mal throttling loss when open. I also want to switch from using an 'On-Cent= er' turbine housing to the more efficient tangent style. If I put such a tu= rbine on my existing manifold, the turbo would be touching the cowl. The ad= ded benefit of the tangential housing is the V band clamp exhaust coupling,= which is easier to fit & align an exhaust downpipe. I would hope to fit th= e muffler inside the cowl, the drag penalty of an underslung muffler must b= e great. I noticed the engine won't start when the EC-2 mode 8 timing is set to +10.= I don't know the reason, perhaps the coil dwell is effected or something. = When I reset to the default '0', it starts right up, so I'm running it @ +3= which starts & runs fine, and is 23BTDC. I'll try switching from 92 to 87 = octane ethanol free mogas, and then bump the timing up to 25 if it improves= performance and or decreases exhaust temps. =20 -----Original Message----- From: Scott Emery To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 1:21 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not A quick note from the airport: I reset timing to 23 BTDC and groomed the injection table for low RPM.=20 I'm over propped, but I did fly again, with much better results. Smooth eng= ine again (Mazda goes Hummm). After I got up to pattern altitude and gained speed over 120mph, climb rate= increased to about 1000fpm. After level off @ 2000' speed increased to ove= r 170mph. I quickly re-entered the pattern & landed due to a rain squall he= aded toward the field. 4375 RPM Static, about 5400rpm @ 170 mph. Fuel burn: about 10.8 gph. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:19 AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: OK, I searched the archive, Brian Trubee posted 22-23 BTDC as the correct t= iming for naturally aspirated operation, so I'll back off the Mode 8 timing= to 22 BTDC and test for Static RPM before the next flight. -----Original Message----- From: shipchief To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Apr 21, 2014 10:05 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not Thanks Dave; I may end up reinstalling the turbo soon. I use a water cooled bearing, I t= hink the exhaust housing is the only damaged part.=20 My exhaust manifold has no sign of stress or damage, I'm looking for a way = to add a waste gate, not ruin the existing manifold, and fit it around the = Fred Breese mount...=20 Today I completed the transformation to Non-Turbo operation. I replaced the= turbo with a cast stainless steel elbow and a Aircraft Spruce 321 SS Ball/= Swivel joint and cut/welded to fit the old turbo down pipe. I made up sheet= metal heat shields with some blast cooling on the elbow to be on the safe = side. I checked my maintenance log, and noted that timing had been set @ 18 BTDC= , with a EM-2 setting of -2. So I started the engine and advanced the timin= g to +10, for 30 BTDC. at low RPM, the advance seemed to make the engine ru= n better. With the CATTO prop I'm using, I could only get 4370 RPM static. I could ea= sily blow thru 4900 static with the turbo. I did a few dry run take-offs wi= th good general engine behavior, so I gave it a flight. RPM increased sligh= tly to about 4400 once I started the take off roll. I took off late & climb= ed anemically. about like a Cessna 172. I noticed some hiccups even though = I was fine adjusting the mixture and watching the O2 sensor output. EGT typ= ically ran 1450 for the take off, and in the 1650 range for most of the fl= ight, with some 1730F in there too. It never ran smoothly like it has at lo= w power before. I wonder, what should the timing be for naturally aspirated= ? I thought it's supposed to be 35 BTDC? I set it initially to the turbo se= tting (19 BTDC) with a timing light at 4000 RPM as per the manual. I didn't= quite hit the 19 BTDC in the manual, figuring to err on the side of safety= , and add advance later. So could the hiccupping be retarded or advanced timing, or a semi fouled pl= ug? I didn't expect the non-turbo version to be so weak. The full throttle = fuel flow on the EM-3 was about 8.5 GPH, which is only about 100 HP, based = on the simple 100HP =3D 8GPH fuel flow rule of thumb. This was about 5100+ = RPM and about 150 MPH @ 2000ft MSL. 14 hours flight time, 26 to go... -----Original Message----- From: David Leonard To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, Apr 14, 2014 8:46 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not If you want to return to the tubo, consider a water cooled housing like the= stock. Mine is a modified stock housing with a TO4 turbine but still reta= ins the water cooling. If I am not careful with EGTs I can still melt the = turbine blades, but the housing has held up very well. I also use the stoc= k heat shields. Nothing like having the extra power! David Leonard On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:51 PM, wrote: I went out to the Hangar last Tuesday to start installing the intercooler. = Well, at least to fit a few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts and ma= ke plans. As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed the whole tu= rbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the turbine housing! I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tight.=20 So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably cooked the= turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's worse, I had a = new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been better, so some co= oling air could pass over the housing, but still block radiant heat. Bummer.=20 So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube bends to switch= to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust header that the = turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past the bottom of the firewa= ll, to the new pipe & muffler I recently added. I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become curious abou= t what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of 'Naturally Aspirated'= . I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The exhaust won'= t be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better than the stock = exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port discharge nozzles (rev= ersion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping shape. Plus it's proven stro= ng while carrying the weight of the turbo beyond 1800F, and it passed inspe= ction. I trust it. So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel consumptio= n significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas instead of 92= . (low compression rotors) Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec. =20 Anyone see a problem or have advise? ----------MB_8D1306E7AE74EAF_222C_61F17_webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I flew about 45 minutes the next day. The engine and plane fly fi= ne. I now have 25 flights on the RV-8. Unfortunately, the power lost to the= removal of the turbo is significant. I've lost about 40 MPH of top speed!&= nbsp; I hadn't opened up the throttle above 37" manifold pressure for take = off, nor about 34" MP at any flight above 4000ft., so I don't yet know what= the turbo was capable of providing.
I plan to build an exhaust manifold incorporating a wastegate tha= t has minimal throttling loss when open. I also want to switch from using a= n 'On-Center' turbine housing to the more efficient tangent style. If I put= such a turbine on my existing manifold, the turbo would be touching the co= wl. The added benefit of the tangential housing is the V band clamp exhaust= coupling, which is easier to fit & align an exhaust downpipe. I would = hope to fit the muffler inside the cowl, the drag penalty of an underslung = muffler must be great.
I noticed the engine won't start when the EC-2 mode 8 timing is set to= +10. I don't know the reason, perhaps the coil dwell is effected or someth= ing. When I reset to the default '0', it starts right up, so I'm running it= @ +3 which starts & runs fine, and is 23BTDC. I'll try switching from = 92 to 87 octane ethanol free mogas, and then bump the timing up to 25 = if it improves performance and or decreases exhaust temps.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Emery <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tue, Apr 22, 2014 1:21 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not

A quick note from the airport:
I reset timing to 23 BTDC and groomed the injection table for low RPM.=  
I'm over propped, but I did fly again, with much better results. Smoot= h engine again (Mazda goes Hummm).
After I got up to pattern altitude and gained speed over 120mph, climb= rate increased to about 1000fpm. After level off @ 2000' speed increased t= o over 170mph. I quickly re-entered the pattern & landed due to a rain = squall headed toward the field.
4375 RPM Static, about 5400rpm @ 170 mph. Fuel burn: about 10.8 gph.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:19 AM, shipchief= @aol.com wrote:

OK, I searched the archive, Brian Trubee posted 22-23 BTDC as the corr= ect timing for naturally aspirated operation, so I'll back off the Mode 8 t= iming to 22 BTDC and test for Static RPM before the next flight.
-----Original Message-----
From: shipchief <shipchief@aol.com<= /a>>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, Apr 21, 2014 10:05 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not

Thanks Dave;
I may end up reinstalling the turbo soon. I use a water cooled be= aring, I think the exhaust housing is the only damaged part.
My exhaust manifold has no sign of stress or damage, I'm looking for&n= bsp;a way to add a waste gate, not ruin the existing manifold, and fit it a= round the Fred Breese mount...
Today I completed the transformation to Non-Turbo operation. I re= placed the turbo with a cast stainless steel elbow and a Aircraft Spru= ce 321 SS Ball/Swivel joint and cut/welded to fit the old turbo down pipe. = I made up sheet metal heat shields with some blast cooling on the elbo= w to be on the safe side.
 I checked my maintenance log, and noted that timing had been set= @ 18 BTDC, with a EM-2 setting of -2. So I started the engine and advanced= the timing to +10, for 30 BTDC. at low RPM, the advance seemed to make the= engine run better.
With the CATTO prop I'm using, I could only get 4370 RPM static. I cou= ld easily blow thru 4900 static with the turbo. I did a few dry run ta= ke-offs with good general engine behavior, so I gave it a flight. RPM incre= ased slightly to about 4400 once I started the take off roll. I took off la= te & climbed anemically. about like a Cessna 172. I noticed some hiccup= s even though I was fine adjusting the mixture and watching the O2 sensor o= utput. EGT typically ran 1450 for the take off, and in the 1650 range for m= ost of  the flight, with some 1730F in there too. It never ran smoothl= y like it has at low power before. I wonder, what should the timing be for = naturally aspirated? I thought it's supposed to be 35 BTDC? I set it initia= lly to the turbo setting (19 BTDC) with a timing light at 4000 RPM as = per the manual. I didn't quite hit the 19 BTDC in the manual, figuring to e= rr on the side of safety, and add advance later.
So could the hiccupping be retarded or advanced timing, or a semi foul= ed plug? I didn't expect the non-turbo version to be so weak. The full thro= ttle fuel flow on the EM-3 was about 8.5 GPH, which is only about 100 HP, b= ased on the simple 100HP =3D 8GPH fuel flow rule of thumb. This was about 5= 100+ RPM and about 150 MPH @ 2000ft MSL.
14 hours flight time, 26 to go...
-----Original Message-----
From: David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net>
Sent: Mon, Apr 14, 2014 8:46 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Switcheroo from turbo to not

If you want to return to the tubo, consider a water cooled= housing like the stock.  Mine is a modified stock housing with a TO4 = turbine but still retains the water cooling.  If I am not careful with= EGTs I can still melt the turbine blades, but the housing has held up very= well.  I also use the stock heat shields.

Nothing like having the extra power!

David Leonard




On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 2:51 PM, <shipchief@aol.com> wrote:
I went out to the Hanga= r last Tuesday to start installing the intercooler. Well, at least to fit a= few tubes and hoses, then hold up some parts and make plans.
As I took the air discharge tube off the compressor, I noticed the who= le turbo compressor & bearing assembly wiggling around on the turbine h= ousing!
I checked all the mounting bolts and clips, everything was tight.
So I took the turbo off the engine, and realized that I probably cooke= d the turbine housing. I did see EGT excursions to 1800F. What's worse, I h= ad a new turbo blanket. I think a heat shield would have been better, so so= me cooling air could pass over the housing, but still block radiant he= at.
Bummer.
So I decided to go with Plan B: I ordered the bits and tube bends to s= witch to naturally aspirated operation. I'm keeping the exhaust header that= the turbo sat upon, and replacing everything else past the bottom of = the firewall, to the new pipe & muffler I recently added.
I'm retaining the ability to 'Go Turbo' later, but I've become curious= about what the turbo must boost to equal full throttle of 'Naturally Aspir= ated'.
I did build and have been running a tuned intake manifold. The exhaust= won't be a tuned header, but it is pretty good, possibly better than the s= tock exhaust reactor and a whole lot lighter. It has port discharge nozzles= (reversion cones) EGT probes and a gentle sweeping shape. Plus it's proven= strong while carrying the weight of the turbo beyond 1800F, and it passed = inspection. I trust it.
So I hope to run it, find the performance satisfactory, the fuel consu= mption significantly reduced, and use 87 octane ethanol free mogas instead = of 92. (low compression rotors)
Also, I can advance the timing to the NA spec.  
Anyone see a problem or have advise?
----------MB_8D1306E7AE74EAF_222C_61F17_webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com--