X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from omr-d04.mx.aol.com ([205.188.109.201] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.7) with ESMTPS id 6470267 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 00:29:11 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.109.201; envelope-from=shipchief@aol.com Received: from mtaout-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com (mtaout-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com [172.29.41.67]) by omr-d04.mx.aol.com (Outbound Mail Relay) with ESMTP id 9C69D70000090 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 00:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [10.231.30.151] (52.sub-174-253-208.myvzw.com [174.253.208.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mtaout-mb03.r1000.mx.aol.com (MUA/Third Party Client Interface) with ESMTPSA id 3454FE0000AA for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2013 00:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters References: From: Scott Emery Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-5--1012928783 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (8E600) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <64277F48-DD13-4DD4-ABB9-403F776441CD@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2013 21:28:28 -0700 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 8E600) x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1378873717; bh=znZg4AEJJBfZywu/bMF7RB4ohYr1ekrGNT5kjZcuytM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-Id:Date:Mime-Version:Content-Type; b=ns/gMiZCUBDr9xdvWSyj4k9TqjPzZ6EZz3hZG2kwrYjAa6i0X9TmJE4QtYr1Hc+GQ rMWqMdPG8mRR9Gde8Smbpbhb2TIFLoCptmW13OWliVA50PYfIV2BBJeETlUdDXNO3Y 9EDRGuPszRjr8eTi5VJ0HMRNh0y+BBjwkW+ShHNA= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d2943522ff1746616 X-AOL-IP: 174.253.208.52 --Apple-Mail-5--1012928783 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Stephen; Back pressure is your answer. The turbocharger turbine extracts work from th= e exhaust flow. Some additional intake manifold pressure is required to over= come it. In my case, I am attempting to operate without an exhaust wastegate= to bypass the turbine. It's likely that I have an intake air pressure build= up before the throttle above about 4400 RPM which could cause some unintend= ed charge air temperature increase, exhaust back pressure increase and overb= oost as the rpm increases with airspeed. I'm approaching this with caution,= and sharing my experience with the group because I get the best, most pract= ical answers here Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Stephen Izett wrote: > Hi all > Can I comment/ask questions here as a learner in order to understand what i= s happening here. I'm goig to need to fault find my NA Renesis setup shortly= . >=20 > 1. If data is accurate: ~8GPH at something around a reasonable fuel to air= I understand would yield just over 100hp? > 2. If the prop is the appropriate size for ~180hp this might make sense wh= y the prop is only getting to 2000 rpm with a 2.18:1 drive > 3. So how can the engine if data is correct only be producing that low a p= ower at ~30" Hg? > Mixture way out? Intake charge way to hot? Timing out? Back Pressure? > 4. All comments Ive made are related to the Fuel flow and manifold pressur= e being accurate. So before anything else can be done those numbers have to b= e ratified, particularly the MAP? >=20 > Thanks guys > I have found this list invaluable along the journey. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Steve Izett - Perth Western Australia > Glasair SIIRG > Renesis 4 port RD1-C EC2 EM3 > Nearly there!!!=20 >=20 >=20 > On 11/09/2013, at 7:29 AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote: >=20 >> Today was more productive. I advanced the timing before I even started it= , warmed it up and ran it up over 4000 RPM a few times to make sure it would= operate smoothly during timing with my wife at the controls. Then I stood b= y the engine and operated the timing light while giving hand signals to Mari= lyn. Eventually, after a few tries, I got it set to 19 BTDC @ 4000 RPM. >> Then I assembled the top cowl and did some tethered trials. I knew I coul= dn't remember the details. I took a few iphone pics. Crumby photos, but read= able data: >> 3082 RPM @ 18.2" Hg >> 3328 RPM @ 20.8" Hg >> 3472 RPM @ 21.6" Hg >> 3756 RPM @ 24.8" Hg >> 4329 RPM @ 32.0" Hg @ 8.5 GPH **** then I leaned the mixture and it went t= o: >> 4389 RPM @ 30.9" Hg @ 7.8 GPH=20 >> Then I untied it and did a few high speed taxi tests, with initial boost i= ntended to be limited to 32", but I did see some excursions to 37". I have a= ll the pieces to make the Blow Off Valve, which should limit boost to about 3= 8". One run was rough running when I advanced the throttle, I had it rich fo= r better idle. After I figured that out, I got a good start on the next high= speed taxi with middle mixture setting, so I'm getting closer. Lots of re-r= eading the EC-2 manual. >> I used Russell Proflex hose for the oil system, the swivels seem to be l= oosening and one at the oil pump outlet seems to seep on some runs and not o= thers. So I need to rethink that. maybe I shouldn't be using swivel fittings= . >> My confidence is much improved. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: shipchief >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:54 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters >>=20 >> Tracy; >> I set the static timing as per your EC-2 instructions, it started and ran= great at low power. I checked it at 3000 RPM with a timing light, and it wa= s about 35 BTDC. The pulse counter was near the back of the travel limit so= I moved it back a gear tooth and set it about 23 BTDC @ 3000 RPM (tight aga= inst the advance stop). I reread your EC-2 manual, and set it back some more= . Now it runs better at low RPM, but needs to be richer. So the next chance I= had was yesterday, when I checked the timing as I mentioned. >> How much advance occurs across the RPM spectrum? It seems to me there is= a retarded timing point at idle (or 0 TDC), then above some number, maybe 1= 500 RPM it advances about 10 degrees? then about 2500 rpm it starts to advan= ce some more, about 5 degrees more @ 3000 RPM? >> It would be helpful to know what to set the base timing at while cranking= over the engine with the injectors turned off. >> Also what the advance is at various RPMs, along with knowing the vacuum a= dvance (5 degrees below 22" Hg) >> =20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tracy >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:36 pm >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters >>=20 >> If your ignition timing measurement was accurate at 3000 rpm and 16" mp, = it's way too retarded. What did you set the static timing to? Remember t= hat that has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. It's just a referen= ce point for the computer. >>=20 >> Tracy >>=20 >> Sent from my iPad >>=20 >> On Sep 9, 2013, at 21:13, shipchief@aol.com wrote: >>=20 >>> Thank all of you for the constructive comments. >>> My Prop is a Catto 68X74, the same as for a 180 HP Lycoming O-360, excep= t it's left turning due the Tracy's 2.19:1 reduction gear. I should expect t= o get 2200 static RPM with it, 4818 engine RPM. >>> The turbocharger is a Turbonetics 60-1 with a TO4-E turbine, with P trim= .81 A/R on center housing. >>> Although I did briefly throttle up to 37" Hg, I'm not sure what the RPM w= as at that moment. Before I blew up the first version of the engine. I did g= et above 4800 RPM on a tethered trial. The oil temp rose quite rapidly. The m= anifold pressure for that run was 44" Hg. I'm concerned that as the aircraft= speeds up, the propeller will unload and the RPM will increase, as it will,= causing an increase in exhaust flow, increase in boost, increase in intake t= emp, and another detonation incident. >>> =20 >>> The run where I described checking the timing maxed out at 3000 RPM, wh= ere my hat blew off, is where I saw 11 degree BTDC and 16" Hg. My wife was i= n the driver's seat while I was using the strobe light on the pulley. So the= se numbers are ballpark numbers. I had the top cowl off to read the timing. L= ast time I ran to 4000 RPM with the top cowl off, the oil cooler air diffuse= r flew off. >>> I'll do better next time. I have fastened the air diffusers so the next t= ime I should be able to run at the 4000 RPM mandated in the EC-2 manual, whe= re I will be above the mode 6 set point of 22" Hg. I'll find out what the cu= rrent timing actually is, verify the Mode 8 timing is set to the mid point, a= nd do another run to set the final timing to the 19 degrees recommended or s= omething a little less to be on the safe side. If I am too retarded now, I'l= l feel the difference in the following full cowl trial to the previously tes= ted settings and if all goes well, higher power. I'll also follow that advic= e to vary power to make sure the engine performs well and won't quit due to t= ransitions. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tracy >>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >>> Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 1:58 am >>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters >>>=20 >>> You are either over propped or something is wrong with the engine or tun= ing. At 37" mp you should be in the 5500-6000 rpm range. You didn't giv= e the rpm at 16" mp and 11 deg BTDC so I can't tell if timing is in the ball= park or not. Is that the same rpm as your hat blew off (3000)? If so, you m= ay be too retarded. >>>=20 >>> And of course we need your prop numbers to make a guess about anything. = Prop chord at 70% on blade is good to know too. Do you have one of those w= ide chord airboat type props? >>>=20 >>> Tracy >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPad >>>=20 >>> On Sep 9, 2013, at 0:47, shipchief@aol.com wrote: >>>=20 >>>> I've been slowly building my RV-8 with 13BT engine for about 14 years..= .! >>>> On June 13th 2013 it received the coveted Airworthiness Certificate. Th= at same day I detonated my engine due to the trailing spark plug holes being= machined oversize in an attempt to improve the single spark plug power, sho= uld the leading plug ignition fail. This, and possibly advanced ignition, an= d possibly over-boost detonated my engine on it's first high power taxi test= . That took about 2.5 seconds. >>>> Now I've rebuilt the engine with new unmodified rotor housings, and it r= uns better than ever. I've re-marked the timing marks on the pulley, and res= et the timing, though not to 4000 RPM yet. today I checked it. At 3000 RPM m= y hat and hearing protection blew off. 11 degrees BTDC, and 16" manifold pre= ssure. >>>> I've been taxiing around at modest RPM, it's great. I've consistently b= een idling at about 1600 RPM, (730 prop RPM) and sometimes as low as 1490, (= 680 Prop RPM) smoothly. That is slow enough to keep the brakes from getting t= oo hot. >>>> I've done run ups and brief bursts of power to 4200 Engine RPM, (1917 P= rop RPM) which is about 32" manifold pressure, and seen 37" manifold pressur= e briefly. I know this is not enough power to take off, although I have done= a Pre-take off to 50 MPH with this power before powering down with roll out= to the end of the runway. I suppose it would fly off and maybe clear the t= rees at this power. I've lifted the tail, and rocked the wings with the aile= rons. It steers well and the brakes work. >>>> The water level in the engine stays up between flights as does the oil,= and the water temp today was consistent 163 F oil about 173 with the highe= st observed 183F. I did about 4 pre-take off passes with taxi back, with exc= ellent temperature control and throttle response. >>>> A couple of oil fitting were tightened looking for an oil seep. >>>> 7.3 hours engine running time on the EM2, about 2 hours since the engin= e overhaul. >>>> I don't think I'm at all ready to fly this thing. I'm missing something= , so offer up some advice, I'm all ears! >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 > >=20 --Apple-Mail-5--1012928783 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Stephen;
Back pressure is you= r answer. The turbocharger turbine extracts work from the exhaust flow. Some= additional intake manifold pressure is required to overcome it. In my case,= I am attempting to operate without an exhaust wastegate to bypass the turbi= ne. It's likely that I have an intake air pressure build up before the throt= tle above about 4400 RPM which could cause some unintended charge air temper= ature increase, exhaust back pressure increase and overboost as the rpm incr= eases with airspeed.  I'm approaching this with caution, and sharing my= experience with the group because I get the best, most practical answers he= re

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Ste= phen Izett <steveizett@me.com>= ; wrote:

Hi all
C= an I comment/ask questions here as a learner in order to understand what is h= appening here. I'm goig to need to fault find my NA Renesis setup shortly.

1. If data is accurate: ~8GPH at something around a r= easonable fuel to air I understand would yield just over 100hp?
2.= If the prop is the appropriate size for ~180hp this might make sense why th= e prop is only getting to 2000 rpm with a 2.18:1 drive
3. So how c= an the engine if data is correct only be producing that low a power at ~30" H= g?
Mixture way out? Intake charge way to hot? Timing out? Back Pre= ssure?
4. All comments Ive made are related to the Fuel flow and m= anifold pressure being accurate. So before anything else can be done th= ose numbers have to be ratified, particularly the MAP?

<= div>Thanks guys
I have found this list invaluable along the journe= y.

Cheers

Steve Izett - Pe= rth Western Australia
Glasair SIIRG
Renesis 4 port RD1-C= EC2 EM3
Nearly there!!! 


<= div>On 11/09/2013, at 7:29 AM, shipchief@aol.com wrote:

Today was more productive. I advanced the timing before I even started i= t, warmed it up and ran it up over 4000 RPM a few times to make sure it woul= d operate smoothly during timing with my wife at the controls. Then&nbs= p;I stood by the engine and operated the timing light while giving hand sign= als to Marilyn. Eventually, after a few tries, I got it set to 19 BTDC @ 400= 0 RPM.
Then I assembled the top cowl and did some tethered trials. I knew= I couldn't remember the details. I took a few iphone pics. Crumby photos, b= ut readable data:
3082 RPM @ 18.2" Hg
3328 RPM @ 20.8" Hg
3472 RPM @ 21.6" Hg
3756 RPM @ 24.8" Hg
4329 RPM @ 32.0" Hg @ 8.5 GPH **** then I leaned the mixture and i= t went to:
4389 RPM @ 30.9" Hg @ 7.8 GPH 
Then I untied it and did a few high speed taxi tests, with initial boos= t intended to be limited to 32", but I did see some excursions to 37". I hav= e all the pieces to make the Blow Off Valve, which should limit boost to abo= ut 38". One run was rough running when I advanced the throttle, I had it ric= h for better idle. After I figured that out, I got a good start on the next h= igh speed taxi with middle mixture setting, so I'm getting closer. Lots of r= e-reading the EC-2 manual.
 I used Russell Proflex hose for the oil system,  the swivels= seem to be loosening and one at the oil pump outlet seems to seep on some r= uns and not others. So I need to rethink that. maybe I shouldn't be using sw= ivel fittings.
My confidence is much improved.
-----Origina= l Message-----
From: shipchief <shipchief@aol.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 7:54 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters

Tracy;
I set the static timing as per your EC-2 instructions, it started a= nd ran great at low power. I checked it at 3000 RPM with a timing light, and= it was about 35 BTDC.  The pulse counter was near the back of the trav= el limit so I moved it back a gear tooth and set it about 23 BTDC @ 300= 0 RPM (tight against the advance stop). I reread your EC-2 manual, and s= et it back some more. Now it runs better at low RPM, but needs to be ri= cher. So the next chance I had was yesterday, when I checked the timing= as I mentioned.
 How much advance occurs across the RPM spectrum? It seems to me t= here is a retarded timing point at idle (or 0 TDC), then above some number, m= aybe 1500 RPM it advances about 10 degrees? then about 2500 rpm it starts to= advance some more, about 5 degrees more @ 3000 RPM?
It would be helpful to know what to set the base timing at while c= ranking over the engine with the injectors turned off.
Also what the advance is at various RPMs, along with knowing the v= acuum advance (5 degrees below 22" Hg)
 
-----Origina= l Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 6:36 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters

If your ignition timing measurement was accurate at 3000 rpm and 16" mp= ,  it's way too retarded.  What did you set the static timing to? &= nbsp; Remember that that has nothing to do with actual ignition timing. &nbs= p;It's just a reference point for the computer.

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 9, 2013, at 21:13, shipchief@aol.com wrote:

Thank all of you for the constructive comments.
My Prop is a Catto 68X74, the same as for a 180 HP Lycoming O-360, exce= pt it's left turning due the Tracy's 2.19:1 reduction gear. I should expect t= o get 2200 static RPM with it, 4818 engine RPM.
The turbocharger is a Turbonetics 60-1 with a TO4-E turbine, with P tri= m .81 A/R on center housing.
Although I did briefly throttle up to 37" Hg, I'm not sure what the RPM= was at that moment. Before I blew up the first version of the engine. I did= get above 4800 RPM on a tethered trial. The oil temp rose quite rapidly. Th= e manifold pressure for that run was 44" Hg. I'm concerned that as the aircr= aft speeds up, the propeller will unload and the RPM will increase, as it wi= ll, causing an increase in exhaust flow, increase in boost, increase in inta= ke temp, and another detonation incident.
 
 The run where I described checking the timing maxed out at 3000 R= PM, where my hat blew off, is where I saw 11 degree BTDC and 16" H= g. My wife was in the driver's seat while I was using the strobe light on th= e pulley. So these numbers are ballpark numbers. I had the top cowl off to r= ead the timing. Last time I ran to 4000 RPM with the top cowl off, the oil c= ooler air diffuser flew off.
I'll do better next time. I have fastened the air diffusers so the next= time I should be able to run at the 4000 RPM mandated in the EC-2 manual, w= here I will be above the mode 6 set point of 22" Hg. I'll find out what the c= urrent timing actually is, verify the Mode 8 timing is set to the mid p= oint, and do another run to set the final timing to the 19 degrees recommend= ed or something a little less to be on the safe side. If I am too retarded n= ow, I'll feel the difference in the following full cowl trial to the previou= sly tested settings and if all goes well, higher power. I'll also follo= w that advice to vary power to make sure the engine performs well and won't q= uit due to transitions.
-----Origina= l Message-----
From: Tracy <rwstracy@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.= net>
Sent: Mon, Sep 9, 2013 1:58 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight jitters

You are either over propped or something is wrong with the engine or tu= ning.   At 37" mp you should be in the 5500-6000  rpm range.  = ; You didn't give the rpm at 16" mp and 11 deg BTDC so I can't tell if timin= g is in the ballpark or not.  Is that the same rpm as your hat blew off= (3000)?  If so, you may be too retarded.

And of course we need your prop numbers to make a guess about anything.=  Prop chord at 70% on blade is good to know too.  Do you have one= of those wide chord airboat type props?

Tracy

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 9, 2013, at 0:47, shipchief@aol.com wrote:

I've been slowly buildin= g my RV-8 with 13BT engine for about 14 years...!
On June 13th 2013 it received the coveted Airworthiness Certificat= e. That same day I detonated my engine due to the trailing spark plug holes b= eing machined oversize in an attempt to improve the single spark plug power,= should the leading plug ignition fail. This, and possibly advanced ignition= , and possibly over-boost detonated my engine on it's first high power taxi t= est. That took about 2.5 seconds.
Now I've rebuilt the engine with new unmodified rotor housings, and it r= uns better than ever. I've re-marked the timing marks on the pulley, and res= et the timing, though not to 4000 RPM yet. today I checked it. At 3000 RPM m= y hat and hearing protection blew off. 11 degrees BTDC, and 16" manifold pre= ssure.
I've been taxiing around at modest RPM, it's great. I've consistently b= een idling at about 1600 RPM, (730 prop RPM) and sometimes as low as 14= 90, (680 Prop RPM) smoothly. That is slow enough to keep the brakes fro= m getting too hot.
I've done run ups and brief bursts of power to 4200 Engine RPM, (1917 P= rop RPM) which is about 32" manifold pressure, and seen 37" manifold pressur= e briefly. I know this is not enough power to take off, although I have = ;done a Pre-take off to 50 MPH with this power before powering down&nbs= p;with roll out to the end of the runway.  I suppose it would fly o= ff and maybe clear the trees at this power. I've lifted the tail, and rocked= the wings with the ailerons. It steers well and the brakes work.
The water level in the engine stays up between flights as does the= oil, and the water temp today was consistent 163 F oil  about 173 with= the highest observed 183F. I did about 4 pre-take off passes with taxi back= , with excellent temperature control and throttle response.
A couple of oil fitting were tightened looking for an oil seep.
7.3 hours engine running time on the EM2, about 2 hours since the engin= e overhaul.
I don't think I'm at all ready to fly this thing. I'm missing something= , so offer up some advice, I'm all ears!

<steve_pastor_esig.jpeg>

= --Apple-Mail-5--1012928783--