X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 6087944 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:38:43 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.32; envelope-from=hoursaway1@comcast.net Received: from omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.12]) by qmta03.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5fpT1l0070FhH24A3ge9cR; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 04:38:09 +0000 Received: from sz0081.ev.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.40.137]) by omta08.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5ge81l00N2xZMJ48Uge89m; Thu, 28 Feb 2013 04:38:08 +0000 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 04:38:08 +0000 (UTC) From: hoursaway1@comcast.net To: Rotary motors in aircraft Message-ID: <372529834.1668900.1362026288741.JavaMail.root@sz0081a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1668899_185421033.1362026288740" X-Originating-IP: [::ffff:68.40.10.159] X-Mailer: Zimbra 6.0.13_GA_2944 (ZimbraWebClient - IE8 (Win)/6.0.13_GA_2944) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1362026289; bh=pzh+nVDXCRuwuxxscLmdVraZ37V/FzOgii1K/gb5YzM=; h=Received:Received:Date:From:To:Message-ID:Subject:MIME-Version: Content-Type; b=nK7u+CRhKKp8y9nUA2ZPW3m549GNXTIYr4Nbg5LL9Z8lzYX+RmGSu3WS691zpRVCo hrE3+GlVmjqKklbb1xsM5FvT51sNU+hyBEqkdttv5Z2baMuXyDMJFkCI8Bcyy4VVIV m09X8rhqB4icWaaSvP/dpSqkMdHyOby0Al776qRu9RItzFzVaj2WVZUW6v1i2oNM+y xWT9HQw48UZoS7tHiNRzW/MpzaZ+szoHdboskYzlCfnmvNLwjGkex0Sz4ovXhw/Lg2 Bvkxb2WwNArOgmukrIME08H+LQfKch8eK9Oke2dEeyiD7DzVZqOdDPEtE9vfuWLXMw wcov3FsoJxAtQ== ------=_Part_1668899_185421033.1362026288740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Saves 4.8 #s off front of eng. ,=C2=A0 moves prop = back to design position Vans Aircraft had in mind,=C2=A0 fabbed everything,= rubber O-rings around prop flange bushings=C2=A0isolating brush plates are= from an auto trans, cost?$20? As long as top speed will not be lowered by = aerodynamic prop disc drag I will be happy with the Ivo. =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 David=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Johnson" =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =20 Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:42:16 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 Dave, thanks for the pics.=20 What is the advantage in that system?=C2=A0 Where did you order the parts?= =C2=A0 Can you estimate the cost?=20 From: Todd Bartrim =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:29 PM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 David;=20 =C2=A0 I'd really like to see those pics as well. If you can send those my = way as well, I'd really appreciate it.=20 Todd Bartrim=20 On Feb 26, 2013 5:25 PM, < hoursaway1@comcast.net > wrote:=20 Ken, =C2=A0I changed the design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of= MT Prop, I liked the vertical plate instead of the horizontal plate that I= vo had on my prop, brings the prop back to very near what was intended by V= ans Aircraft in the cowl design.=C2=A0 Will send photos direct to you ( to = large for flyrotary blog ).=C2=A0=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A=C2=A0 Rota= ry,=C2=A0 Lansing MI.=C2=A0 foot of snow coming tonight.=20 From: "Kenneth Johnson" < kjohnsondds@yahoo.com >=20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" < flyrotary@lancaironline.net >=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 Hi Gordon,=20 I had to go out and reweigh my Ivoprop.=C2=A0 I do not know if you are fami= liar with this prop?=C2=A0 The blades are made of carbon fiber and do not w= eigh much.=C2=A0 A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of each blade.= =C2=A0 An electric motor applies force to the metal blades inside each carb= on fiber blade, which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each blade.= =C2=A0 The term used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop.=C2= =A0 The motor and contact discs on the center shaft make up most of the wei= ght.=C2=A0 All together the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh abo= ut 7 lbs.=C2=A0 Their placement is about a foot out further anterior than i= f I used a Lycoming engine.=C2=A0 Ken Johnson=20 From: Gordon Alling < gordon@acumen-ea.com >=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net >=20 Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:58 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 Hi Ken,=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks for your info.=C2=A0 You are correct that I am trying to determine t= he position of the engine for proper aircraft CG location.=C2=A0 At the mom= ent, I=E2=80=99m trying to design the engine mount truss for the design loa= ds.=C2=A0 If I know the weight and CG location of the engine/prop assembly,= I can model the loading in truss analysis software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat = if=E2=80=9D games with different truss configurations.=C2=A0 Your 300 Lb. f= igure for the engine/redrive assembly and your heat exchanger weights is a = start.=C2=A0 What does your IVO prop weigh?=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks again for the help.=20 =C2=A0=20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=20 President=20 acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.=20 =C2=A0=20 540-786-2200=20 www.acumen-ea.com=20 =C2=A0=20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On B= ehalf Of Kenneth Johnson=20 Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:02 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=20 =C2=A0=20 Hi Gordon,=20 I am not certain what you are asking.=C2=A0 It would seem you are asking if= you can use a DIY engine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from= the firewall should you place your engine?=C2=A0 This is what I found with= my engine.=C2=A0 I am using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.=C2= =A0 The weight of my engine and redrive is 295 lbs.=C2=A0 My radiator weigh= s 15 lbs and the oil cooler weights 7 lbs.=C2=A0 I found that when adding t= he weight of the radiator and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system woul= d come very close to the weight of a Lycoming 360.=C2=A0 It was estimated t= hat the average weight of the prop would be 27 lbs.=C2=A0 My Ivoprop weighs= less than that, but the prop is positioned much farther anterior than with= a Lycoming because of the redrive.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So, the arm is out there.= =C2=A0 Tracy's point on the cg of the engine being positioned just inside t= he first end plate would be pretty accurate.=C2=A0=20 I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to offer = actual flight experience.=C2=A0 Zenith did provide numbers for the installa= tion of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my numbers to theirs.=C2=A0 I had ant= icipated that I would be placing my engine a great distance from the firewa= ll because everyone says the 13B is so light.=C2=A0 However, after adding t= he weight of all the "extras," plus the fact that the arm of my prop is out= a much greater distance than with a Lycoming, I actually had to move the e= ngine closer to the firewall than if I used a Lycoming.=C2=A0 I concluded t= hat I needed to design and build my own engine mount.=20 I hope this is helpful.=20 Ken johnson=20 From: Gordon Alling < gordon@acumen-ea.com >=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft < flyrotary@lancaironline.net >=20 Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location=20 =C2=A0=20 I=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine mount for my turbo 13B engine.=C2=A0 D= oes anyone out there with an operating 13B (turbo or NA) have good numbers = for the installed weight and CG location for his/her engine/redrive/prop co= mbination?=C2=A0 I want some ballpark numbers to get started.=20 =C2=A0=20 Thanks.=20 =C2=A0=20 Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=20 President=20 acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.=20 =C2=A0=20 540-786-2200=20 www.acumen-ea.com=20 =C2=A0=20 =C2=A0=20 ------=_Part_1668899_185421033.1362026288740 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= div style=3D'font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'> &nb= sp;   Saves 4.8 #s off front of eng.,  moves prop back to de= sign position Vans Aircraft had in mind,  fabbed everything, rubber O-= rings around prop flange bushings isolating brush plates are from an a= uto trans, cost?$20? As long as top speed will not be lowered by aerodynami= c prop disc drag I will be happy with the Ivo.     = ;  David          &n= bsp;  

From: "Kenneth Johnson" <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>
To: = "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:= Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:42:16 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: 13B weight and CG location

Dave, thanks for the pics.
From: Todd Bartrim <bart= rim@gmail.com>
To: Ro= tary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:29= PM
Subject: [FlyRotary]= Re: 13B weight and CG location

David;
  I'd really like to see those pics as well. If you can= send those my way as well, I'd really appreciate it.
Todd Bartrim
On Feb 26, 2013 5:25 PM, <hoursaway1@= comcast.net> wrote:
Ken,  I changed the= design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of MT Prop, I liked the ve= rtical plate instead of the horizontal plate that Ivo had on my prop, bring= s the prop back to very near what was intended by Vans Aircraft in the cowl= design.  Will send photos direct to you ( to large for flyrotary blog= ).   David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary,  Lansing MI.&nb= sp; foot of snow coming tonight.

From: "Kenneth Johnson" <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: 13B weight and CG location

Hi Gordon,
I had to go out and reweigh my Ivoprop.  I do = not know if you are familiar with this prop?  The blades are made of c= arbon fiber and do not weigh much.  A metal blade (shaft) runs down th= e center of each blade.  An electric motor applies force to the metal = blades inside each carbon fiber blade, which twists the blades, changing th= e pitch of each blade.  The term used is an in-flight-electrical adjus= table pitch prop.  The motor and contact discs on the center shaft mak= e up most of the weight.  All together the 3 carbon blades and motor p= rop system weigh about 7 lbs.  Their placement is about a foot out fur= ther anterior than if I used a Lycoming engine.  Ken Johnson


From: Gordon Alling <gordon@= acumen-ea.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Sent: Monday, February 25, = 2013 7:58 AM
Subject: [F= lyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location

Hi Ken,
 
Thanks for your info.&= nbsp; You are correct that I am trying to determine the position of the eng= ine for proper aircraft CG location.  At the moment, I=E2=80=99m tryin= g to design the engine mount truss for the design loads.  If I know th= e weight and CG location of the engine/prop assembly, I can model the loadi= ng in truss analysis software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat if=E2=80=9D games with= different truss configurations.  Your 300 Lb. figure for the engine/r= edrive assembly and your heat exchanger weights is a start.  What does= your IVO prop weigh? 
 
Thanks again for the h= elp.
 
Gordon C. Alling, Jr.,= PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.<= SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">
 
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.= net] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson
Sent: Sunday, Februa= ry 24, 2013 7:02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:<= /B> [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location
 
Hi Gordon,
I am not certain what = you are asking.  It would seem you are asking if you can use a DIY eng= ine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from the firewall should y= ou place your engine?  This is what I found with my engine.  I am= using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.  The weight of my en= gine and redrive is 295 lbs.  My radiator weighs 15 lbs and the oil co= oler weights 7 lbs.  I found that when adding the weight of the radiat= or and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system would come very close to th= e weight of a Lycoming 360.  It was estimated that the average weight = of the prop would be 27 lbs.  My Ivoprop weighs less than that, but th= e prop is positioned much farther anterior than with a Lycoming because of = the redrive.   So, the arm is out there.  Tracy's point on t= he cg of the engine being positioned just inside the first end plate would = be pretty accurate. 

I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith= 801, so I am yet unable to offer actual flight experience.  Zenith di= d provide numbers for the installation of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my = numbers to theirs.  I had anticipated that I would be placing my engin= e a great distance from the firewall because everyone says the 13B is so li= ght.  However, after adding the weight of all the "extras," plus the f= act that the arm of my prop is out a much greater distance than with a Lyco= ming, I actually had to move the engine closer to the firewall than if I us= ed a Lycoming.  I concluded that I needed to design and build my own e= ngine mount.

I hope this is helpful.

Ken johnson
From: Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.co= m>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancairo= nline.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM
<= B>Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location
 
I=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine= mount for my turbo 13B engine.  Does anyone out there with an operati= ng 13B (turbo or NA) have good numbers for the installed weight and CG loca= tion for his/her engine/redrive/prop combination?  I want some ballpar= k numbers to get started.
 
Thanks.
 
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analysis, I= nc.
 
 
 




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