X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nm19-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.56] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6087721 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:42:51 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=98.138.91.56; envelope-from=kjohnsondds@yahoo.com Received: from [98.138.226.177] by nm19.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2013 23:42:17 -0000 Received: from [98.138.89.164] by tm12.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2013 23:42:17 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1020.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Feb 2013 23:42:17 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 70214.22664.bm@omp1020.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 51441 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Feb 2013 23:42:16 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1362008536; bh=tmFAy3CDFuRP5lxpkWiYlJnQQAptSEuzQv8l4VVlZ90=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=tlOSJiiBVpNhTKJHw81sygdEUIkz9rmjIWh2fZoOFkGrMhlXIyEAfsqQv8ahfwd5gw5Ox92KE3yizbLr/bcWxy8eedFnbm3kYzpcdTtzXNW+8pfPO2HU85/b6+tgryRZMimAAYEyhYuMxSgNYcyH9zWR8AKvF13d08ggUEuIyOw= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=G4woumWSOqgQ6Ug+rK8ayWDxXEBoETEAWCNW07jpKspnZgI7JgnrpfeFZ2uIdkYWRtRGqCuzYsgyjP4Rivl+UJri42inup2WOl0lUA9gHk9VCecDAjn1Vw9xFah6mq/IsK0oazx/WfvSfuhXQjOzA6GAy2X/YMsmS05ZMlih/0s=; X-YMail-OSG: vEShCBQVM1mbO9ix_0PNUSJQaOoDnZxSsGXK4kYByVvKC7O VCcCazJ_SrhrnrKWr.kHawqPa1e2sMsgi02VEVK9AObpn7_cY0FdN.0875aw mBDCuECqvAOPohAdszNxSkwgsYMt02u03B8PmfduVH3R9WX.nvlYQ7bMrPUZ pDuonrnQjh0xfUTrDgxQ5VhwBrgJ_LfUDDyDtorpM8gou98LLKJGP.EFlsKw yfgBKXZTz.zUPZG2VPksXEb0C.lC9Mli0DGcZjdTlIEEkPDfIOl4x3Zqn9ja grRuw_Rr9jQdEChT8ROJD5ZYslP181roUlZEevJDgm9PIV_MNW590dUuDmLm PWCpoQgzkVOiWwNq5_47tT1BgczyvtUnDLBM3daOPSbhqBoRXZvIFpBFkyrQ m6LVXWa3FFgrUQZh4zvIjrIQHKaH7tziKF93yRIgwV4yWrIhikBf0pFxzbjj w4h1fXUK5Q3EgGpbRFpcXgeSYHgWFK7Ig5TkwdqFvP.gc7PnBO2UeRpSdHZq P6AftftHmBKpf9PS2DMcDHMx49nAmGVmT39VABPqjSDz_0KCp4UqUUsNVnK1 M1QX.W3nAW34U0AY8phhm8HuW3iDs Received: from [66.168.8.63] by web125501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:42:16 PST X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 001.001,RGF2ZSwgdGhhbmtzIGZvciB0aGUgcGljcy4KV2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgYWR2YW50YWdlIGluIHRoYXQgc3lzdGVtP8KgIFdoZXJlIGRpZCB5b3Ugb3JkZXIgdGhlIHBhcnRzP8KgIENhbiB5b3UgZXN0aW1hdGUgdGhlIGNvc3Q_CgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCiBGcm9tOiBUb2RkIEJhcnRyaW0gPGJhcnRyaW1AZ21haWwuY29tPgpUbzogUm90YXJ5IG1vdG9ycyBpbiBhaXJjcmFmdCA8Zmx5cm90YXJ5QGxhbmNhaXJvbmxpbmUubmV0PiAKU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMjYBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.135.514 References: Message-ID: <1362008536.46817.YahooMailNeo@web125501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:42:16 -0800 (PST) From: Kenneth Johnson Reply-To: Kenneth Johnson Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="329289550-1569434109-1362008536=:46817" --329289550-1569434109-1362008536=:46817 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, thanks for the pics.=0AWhat is the advantage in that system?=C2=A0 Wh= ere did you order the parts?=C2=A0 Can you estimate the cost?=0A=0A=0A=0A__= ______________________________=0A From: Todd Bartrim =0A= To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0ASent: Tuesda= y, February 26, 2013 10:29 PM=0ASubject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG = location=0A =0A=0ADavid;=0A=C2=A0 I'd really like to see those pics as well= . If you can send those my way as well, I'd really appreciate it.=0ATodd Ba= rtrim=0AOn Feb 26, 2013 5:25 PM, wrote:=0A=0AKen,= =C2=A0I changed the design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of MT = Prop, I liked the vertical plate instead of the horizontal plate that Ivo h= ad on my prop, brings the prop back to very near what was intended by Vans = Aircraft in the cowl design.=C2=A0 Will send photos direct to you ( to larg= e for flyrotary blog ).=C2=A0=C2=A0 David R. Cook=C2=A0 RV6A=C2=A0 Rotary,= =C2=A0 Lansing MI.=C2=A0 foot of snow coming tonight.=0A>=0A>>_____________= ___________________=0A> From: "Kenneth Johnson" =0A>= To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" =0A>Sent: Tues= day, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight an= d CG location=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Gordon,=0A>I had to go out and reweigh my Ivopr= op.=C2=A0 I do not know if you are familiar with this prop?=C2=A0 The blade= s are made of carbon fiber and do not weigh much.=C2=A0 A metal blade (shaf= t) runs down the center of each blade.=C2=A0 An electric motor applies forc= e to the metal blades inside each carbon fiber blade, which twists the blad= es, changing the pitch of each blade.=C2=A0 The term used is an in-flight-e= lectrical adjustable pitch prop.=C2=A0 The motor and contact discs on the c= enter shaft make up most of the weight.=C2=A0 All together the 3 carbon bla= des and motor prop system weigh about 7 lbs.=C2=A0 Their placement is about= a foot out further anterior than if I used a Lycoming engine.=C2=A0 Ken Jo= hnson=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>________________________________=0A> From:= Gordon Alling =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:58 AM=0A>Su= bject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location=0A>=0A>=0A>Hi Ken,=0A>=C2= =A0=0A>Thanks for your info.=C2=A0 You are correct that I am trying to dete= rmine the position of the engine for proper aircraft CG location.=C2=A0 At = the moment, I=E2=80=99m trying to design the engine mount truss for the des= ign loads.=C2=A0 If I know the weight and CG location of the engine/prop as= sembly, I can model the loading in truss analysis software and play =E2=80= =9Cwhat if=E2=80=9D games with different truss configurations.=C2=A0 Your 3= 00 Lb. figure for the engine/redrive assembly and your heat exchanger weigh= ts is a start.=C2=A0 What does your IVO prop weigh?=C2=A0 =0A>=C2=A0=0A>Tha= nks again for the help.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=0A>President= =0A>acumenEngineering/Analysis, Inc.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>540-786-2200=0A>www.acume= n-ea.com=0A>=C2=A0=0A>From:Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson=0A>Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2= 013 7:02 PM=0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13= B weight and CG location=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Hi Gordon,=0A>I am not certain what y= ou are asking.=C2=A0 It would seem you are asking if you can use a DIY engi= ne mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from the firewall should yo= u place your engine?=C2=A0 This is what I found with my engine.=C2=A0 I am = using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.=C2=A0 The weight of my eng= ine and redrive is 295 lbs.=C2=A0 My radiator weighs 15 lbs and the oil coo= ler weights 7 lbs.=C2=A0 I found that when adding the weight of the radiato= r and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system would come very close to the= weight of a Lycoming 360.=C2=A0 It was estimated that the average weight o= f the prop would be 27 lbs.=C2=A0 My Ivoprop weighs less than that, but the= prop is positioned much farther anterior than with a Lycoming because of t= he redrive.=C2=A0=C2=A0 So, the arm is out there.=C2=A0 Tracy's point on th= e cg of the engine being positioned just inside the first end plate would b= e pretty accurate.=C2=A0 =0A>=0A>I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith = 801, so I am yet unable to offer actual flight experience.=C2=A0 Zenith did= provide numbers for the installation of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my n= umbers to theirs.=C2=A0 I had anticipated that I would be placing my engine= a great distance from the firewall because everyone says the 13B is so lig= ht.=C2=A0 However, after adding the weight of all the "extras," plus the fa= ct that the arm of my prop is out a much greater distance than with a Lycom= ing, I actually had to move the engine closer to the firewall than if I use= d a Lycoming.=C2=A0 I concluded that I needed to design and build my own en= gine mount.=0A>=0A>I hope this is helpful.=0A>=0A>Ken johnson=0A>=0A>______= __________________________=0A> =0A>From:Gordon Alling =0A>To: Rotary motors in aircraft =0A>Sent: = Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM=0A>Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B weight and = CG location=0A>=C2=A0=0A>I=E2=80=99m considering a DIY engine mount for my = turbo 13B engine.=C2=A0 Does anyone out there with an operating 13B (turbo = or NA) have good numbers for the installed weight and CG location for his/h= er engine/redrive/prop combination?=C2=A0 I want some ballpark numbers to g= et started.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Thanks.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE=0A>= President=0A>acumenEngineering/Analysis, Inc.=0A>=C2=A0=0A>540-786-2200=0A>= www.acumen-ea.com=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=C2=A0=0A>=0A> --329289550-1569434109-1362008536=:46817 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dave, than= ks for the pics.
What is the advantage in that syste= m?  Where did you order the parts?  Can you estimate the cost?

From: Todd Bartrim <bartrim@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft &= lt;flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:29 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight = and CG location

=0A
Dav= id;
=0A  I'd really like to see those pics as well. If you can send= those my way as well, I'd really appreciate it.
=0A
Todd Bartrim<= /div>=0A
On Feb 26, 2013 5:25 PM, &l= t;hoursaway1@comcast.net>= ; wrote:
=0A
Ken,  I changed the design of t= he Ivoprop brush plate to match that of MT Prop, I liked the vertical plate= instead of the horizontal plate that Ivo had on my prop, brings the prop b= ack to very near what was intended by Vans Aircraft in the cowl design.&nbs= p; Will send photos direct to you ( to large for flyrotary blog ). &nb= sp; David R. Cook  RV6A  Rotary,  Lansing MI.  foot of = snow coming tonight.
=0A
=0A
=0AFrom: "Kenneth Johnson" <= ;kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
=0ASent: <= /b>Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:= 13B weight and CG location

=0A
Hi Gordon,
I had to go out= and reweigh my Ivoprop.  I do not know if you are familiar with this = prop?  The blades are made of carbon fiber and do not weigh much. = ; A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of each blade.  An electr= ic motor applies force to the metal blades inside each carbon fiber blade, = which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each blade.  The term u= sed is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop.  The motor and c= ontact discs on the center shaft make up most of the weight.  All toge= ther the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh about 7 lbs.  The= ir placement is about a foot out further anterior than if I used a Lycoming= engine.  Ken Johnson
=0A=0A

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A=0AFrom: Gordo= n Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com>
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft <flyr= otary@lancaironline.net>
=0ASent: Monday, February 25, 2013 7:58 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG loca= tion

=0A
=0A=0A=0A
=0A
=0A
Hi Ken,
=0A
 
=0A
Thanks for your info.  You are corr= ect that I am trying to determine the position of the engine for proper air= craft CG location.  At the moment, I=E2=80=99m trying to design the en= gine mount truss for the design loads.  If I know the weight and CG lo= cation of the engine/prop assembly, I can model the loading in truss analys= is software and play =E2=80=9Cwhat if=E2=80=9D games with different truss c= onfigurations.  Your 300 Lb. figure for the engine/redrive assembly an= d your heat exchanger weights is a start.  What does your IVO prop wei= gh? 
=0A=0A
 
=0A
Thanks again for the help.
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
=0A
President
=0A
<= b>acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.
=0A=0A
 
=0A
540-786-2200<= /span>
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On B= ehalf Of Kenneth Johnson
=0ASent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7= :02 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotar= y] Re: 13B weight and CG location
=0A
 =0A
=0A
Hi Gordon,<= br>I am not certain what you are asking.  It would seem you are asking= if you can use a DIY engine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far f= rom the firewall should you place your engine?  This is what I found w= ith my engine.  I am using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.&= nbsp; The weight of my engine and redrive is 295 lbs.  My radiator wei= ghs 15 lbs and the oil cooler weights 7 lbs.  I found that when adding= the weight of the radiator and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system wo= uld come very close to the weight of a Lycoming 360.  It was estimated= that the average weight of the prop would be 27 lbs.  My Ivoprop weig= hs less than that, but the prop is positioned much farther anterior than wi= th a Lycoming because of the redrive.   So, the arm is out there.=   Tracy's point on the cg of the engine being positioned just inside t= he first end plate would be pretty accurate. 
=0A
I am getting closer t= o finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to offer actual flight experie= nce.  Zenith did provide numbers for the installation of a Lycoming 36= 0 and I compared my numbers to theirs.  I had anticipated that I would= be placing my engine a great distance from the firewall because everyone s= ays the 13B is so light.  However, after adding the weight of all the = "extras," plus the fact that the arm of my prop is out a much greater dista= nce than with a Lycoming, I actually had to move the engine closer to the f= irewall than if I used a Lycoming.  I concluded that I needed to desig= n and build my own engine mount.
=0A
I hope this is helpful.

K= en johnson
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
= =0A
=0A
=0A
From:<= /b> Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com>
=0ATo: Rotary mot= ors in aircraft <f= lyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, = 2013 8:07 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0AI=E2=80=99m considering a D= IY engine mount for my turbo 13B engine.  Does anyone out there with a= n operating 13B (turbo or NA) have good numbers for the installed weight an= d CG location for his/her engine/redrive/prop combination?  I want som= e ballpark numbers to get started.
=0A
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
= =0A
Thanks.
=0A
=0A
 
=0A
=0A
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
=0A
=0A
President
=0A
=0A
acumen Engineer= ing/Analysis, Inc.
=0A
=0A=
= =0A
&nb= sp;


=0A


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