X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-vb0-f42.google.com ([209.85.212.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTPS id 6085963 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:30:16 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.212.42; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by mail-vb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id ff1so11337vbb.29 for ; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:29:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:content-type; bh=jzSJ28woqA5lZicz7EGjtr7Es49XORPzAVnrsl0x/SA=; b=aLk9ivmdnDLS5JguQW7Ocg/+err0sEfewv1Lc9BFMGKj1MPMPJV4cLz+bWAmcpWe0b LuWmz06I8EFbbR1HKByY2ccGaPLP8eZIXCZJj+APtGO0T9Q5VE9TJpGK2xh3olnxaGqK Q5mBYdK01c0KhSDtptsyKcYhF1nIqSmGfIYbbhD9Wq5lf9fQpKW82Tplwi6YkddyZ0fv WOaEDmv+1cyMJb65KMFAuHAXpNrMgZRbL0WC4dpMN6cOiGNLMdaHNneKpHFD3IO6+Pk6 vZfMniLkf15bqnACY9xglc8wze3JaLdpDd0oiVAOkxwA3h7eC8nGaXSvBdDOkbZZIDbj pBpA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.188.48 with SMTP id fx16mr340400vec.22.1361939381695; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.66.74 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.66.74 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:29:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:29:41 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location From: Todd Bartrim To: FlyRotary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01229cb60d3e0204d6ad39f5 --089e01229cb60d3e0204d6ad39f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David; I'd really like to see those pics as well. If you can send those my way as well, I'd really appreciate it. Todd Bartrim On Feb 26, 2013 5:25 PM, wrote: > Ken, I changed the design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of MT > Prop, I liked the vertical plate instead of the horizontal plate that Ivo > had on my prop, brings the prop back to very near what was intended by Va= ns > Aircraft in the cowl design. Will send photos direct to you ( to large f= or > flyrotary blog ). David R. Cook RV6A Rotary, Lansing MI. foot of sn= ow > coming tonight. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Kenneth Johnson" > *To: *"Rotary motors in aircraft" > *Sent: *Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM > *Subject: *[FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location > > Hi Gordon, > I had to go out and reweigh my Ivoprop. I do not know if you are familia= r > with this prop? The blades are made of carbon fiber and do not weigh > much. A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of each blade. An > electric motor applies force to the metal blades inside each carbon fiber > blade, which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each blade. The te= rm > used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop. The motor and > contact discs on the center shaft make up most of the weight. All togeth= er > the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh about 7 lbs. Their > placement is about a foot out further anterior than if I used a Lycoming > engine. Ken Johnson > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gordon Alling > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Monday, February 25, 2013 7:58 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location > > Hi Ken, > > Thanks for your info. You are correct that I am trying to determine the > position of the engine for proper aircraft CG location. At the moment, I= =92m > trying to design the engine mount truss for the design loads. If I know > the weight and CG location of the engine/prop assembly, I can model the > loading in truss analysis software and play =93what if=94 games with diff= erent > truss configurations. Your 300 Lb. figure for the engine/redrive assembl= y > and your heat exchanger weights is a start. What does your IVO prop > weigh? > > Thanks again for the help. > > Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE > President > *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.* > > 540-786-2200 > www.acumen-ea.com > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On > Behalf Of *Kenneth Johnson > *Sent:* Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:02 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location > > Hi Gordon, > I am not certain what you are asking. It would seem you are asking if yo= u > can use a DIY engine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from th= e > firewall should you place your engine? This is what I found with my > engine. I am using a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive. The weigh= t > of my engine and redrive is 295 lbs. My radiator weighs 15 lbs and the o= il > cooler weights 7 lbs. I found that when adding the weight of the radiato= r > and oil cooler fluids, that my engine system would come very close to the > weight of a Lycoming 360. It was estimated that the average weight of th= e > prop would be 27 lbs. My Ivoprop weighs less than that, but the prop is > positioned much farther anterior than with a Lycoming because of the > redrive. So, the arm is out there. Tracy's point on the cg of the engi= ne > being positioned just inside the first end plate would be pretty accurate= . > > I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to offe= r > actual flight experience. Zenith did provide numbers for the installatio= n > of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my numbers to theirs. I had anticipated > that I would be placing my engine a great distance from the firewall > because everyone says the 13B is so light. However, after adding the > weight of all the "extras," plus the fact that the arm of my prop is out = a > much greater distance than with a Lycoming, I actually had to move the > engine closer to the firewall than if I used a Lycoming. I concluded tha= t > I needed to design and build my own engine mount. > > I hope this is helpful. > > Ken johnson > ------------------------------ > *From:* Gordon Alling > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location > > I=92m considering a DIY engine mount for my turbo 13B engine. Does > anyone out there with an operating 13B (turbo or NA) have good numbers fo= r > the installed weight and CG location for his/her engine/redrive/prop > combination? I want some ballpark numbers to get started. > > Thanks. > > Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE > President > *acumen* *Engineering/Analysis, Inc.* > > 540-786-2200 > www.acumen-ea.com > > > > > --089e01229cb60d3e0204d6ad39f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

David;
=A0 I'd really like to see those pics as well. If you can send those my= way as well, I'd really appreciate it.

Todd Bartrim

On Feb 26, 2013 5:25 PM, <hoursaway1@comcast.net> wrote:
Ken, =A0I changed the = design of the Ivoprop brush plate to match that of MT Prop, I liked the ver= tical plate instead of the horizontal plate that Ivo had on my prop, brings= the prop back to very near what was intended by Vans Aircraft in the cowl = design.=A0 Will send photos direct to you ( to large for flyrotary blog ).= =A0=A0 David R. Cook=A0 RV6A=A0 Rotary,=A0 Lansing MI.=A0 foot of snow comi= ng tonight.

From: "Kenneth Johnson" <kjohnsondds@yahoo.com>
To: &q= uot;Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:18:26 AM
Subject: [FlyR= otary] Re: 13B weight and CG location

Hi Gordon,
I had to go out and reweigh my Ivoprop.=A0 I do not know = if you are familiar with this prop?=A0 The blades are made of carbon fiber = and do not weigh much.=A0 A metal blade (shaft) runs down the center of eac= h blade.=A0 An electric motor applies force to the metal blades inside each= carbon fiber blade, which twists the blades, changing the pitch of each bl= ade.=A0 The term used is an in-flight-electrical adjustable pitch prop.=A0 = The motor and contact discs on the center shaft make up most of the weight.= =A0 All together the 3 carbon blades and motor prop system weigh about 7 lb= s.=A0 Their placement is about a foot out further anterior than if I used a= Lycoming engine.=A0 Ken Johnson


From: Gordon Alling <gordon@acumen-ea.com<= /a>>
To: Rotary motors= in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2= 013 7:58 AM
Subject: [Fly= Rotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location

Hi Ken,
=A0
Thanks for your info.=A0 You are correct that I a= m trying to determine the position of the engine for proper aircraft CG loc= ation.=A0 At the moment, I=92m trying to design the engine mount truss for = the design loads.=A0 If I know the weight and CG location of the engine/pro= p assembly, I can model the loading in truss analysis software and play =93= what if=94 games with different truss configurations.=A0 Your 300 Lb. figur= e for the engine/redrive assembly and your heat exchanger weights is a star= t.=A0 What does your IVO prop weigh?=A0
=A0
Thanks again for the help.
=A0
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acumen <= i>Engineering/Analysis, Inc.
=A0
=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lanc= aironline.net] On Behalf Of Kenneth Johnson
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:02 PM
To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 13B weight and CG location
=A0
Hi Gordon,
I am not certain = what you are asking.=A0 It would seem you are asking if you can use a DIY e= ngine mount, and therefore, you are asking how far from the firewall should= you place your engine?=A0 This is what I found with my engine.=A0 I am usi= ng a 13B NA engine with a PowerSport redrive.=A0 The weight of my engine an= d redrive is 295 lbs.=A0 My radiator weighs 15 lbs and the oil cooler weigh= ts 7 lbs.=A0 I found that when adding the weight of the radiator and oil co= oler fluids, that my engine system would come very close to the weight of a= Lycoming 360.=A0 It was estimated that the average weight of the prop woul= d be 27 lbs.=A0 My Ivoprop weighs less than that, but the prop is positione= d much farther anterior than with a Lycoming because of the redrive.=A0=A0 = So, the arm is out there.=A0 Tracy's point on the cg of the engine bein= g positioned just inside the first end plate would be pretty accurate.=A0 <= br>
I am getting closer to finishing a Zenith 801, so I am yet unable to of= fer actual flight experience.=A0 Zenith did provide numbers for the install= ation of a Lycoming 360 and I compared my numbers to theirs.=A0 I had antic= ipated that I would be placing my engine a great distance from the firewall= because everyone says the 13B is so light.=A0 However, after adding the we= ight of all the "extras," plus the fact that the arm of my prop i= s out a much greater distance than with a Lycoming, I actually had to move = the engine closer to the firewall than if I used a Lycoming.=A0 I concluded= that I needed to design and build my own engine mount.

I hope this is helpful.

Ken johnson
From: Gordon Alling= <gordon@acumen-ea.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net= >
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:07 AM
Subject= : [FlyRotary] 13B weight and CG location
=A0
I=92m considering a DIY engine = mount for my turbo 13B engine.=A0 Does anyone out there with an operating 1= 3B (turbo or NA) have good numbers for the installed weight and CG location= for his/her engine/redrive/prop combination?=A0 I want some ballpark numbe= rs to get started.
=A0
Thanks.
=A0
Gordon C. Alling, Jr., PE
President
acumen Engineering/Analysis, Inc.
=A0
=A0
=A0


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