X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5999408 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Jan 2013 12:47:31 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Subject: RE: [Fly Rotary] Re: turbo manifold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CDECFE.FCC265C5" Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 11:46:56 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F34BA55B@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [Fly Rotary] Re: turbo manifold thread-index: Ac3s/vxmSzjKpjsaRuSVxnlDqQcSIQ== From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CDECFE.FCC265C5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas, =20 I'm surprised they discuss compressor surge. I guess the pulley ratio must be sized to avoid WOT and high pressure ratios with low HP/ airflow? I don't understand. Apparently centrifugal SC's have the same concern. Positive displacement SC's are not subject to surge but the SC is downstream of the throttle body.=20 =20 Bobby =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Thomas Giddings Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2013 8:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Bill and all: Here is a little info you Renesis guys may find interesting if you are thinking of a turbo.Here is the link.http://www.tracmac.com.au/products1.html KIND REGARDS Thomas Giddings n360tg@earthlink.net 727 858 1772 =20 =20 =20 On Jan 5, 2013, at 1:59 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Dale, That diverter works like a charm! The port that Bobby has plugged, I use to supply oil to the PSRU. The one he has a pressure sender in is the one I would put a "T" in to supply the turbo. =20 Thanks for making a great product! =20 Bill =20 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dale_R Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 1:23 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Bill,=20 One solution is to use a remote oil filter diverter such as the one I make. It offers 3 "clean-oil" ports that can be used for either sensors (pressure, temp) or oil feeds. =20 The attached photo shows the third port unused and plugged (photo courtesy of Bobby Hughes) Best regards, Dale_R COZY MkIV #04 On 1/4/2013 8:44 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: Am I wrong? I don't think that there is a stock turbo oil source and return on the Renesis? It is not factory turboed. =20 =20 Bill B =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Stock turbo oil source on top of front iron, stock turbo oil return on the front cover/iron.=20 =09 Dont boost 10:1. Get low compression rotors. Even with intercooling, your turbo will increase your intake air temp very significantly, and eat into detonation margins. It only takes a few seconds to destroy your apex seals.. quicker than you can detect and react.=20 =09 =09 =09 On 1/3/2013 11:22 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: How are the folks with turbos handling the plumbing? Where are you picking up the pressurized oil and where/how do you return the oil to the crankcase? I read in the install instructions that the oil drain line should be one inch in diameter, return above oil level in the crankcase, and have no traps in it. That doesn't seem possible with the rotary?? How are you doing it?=20 =20 How far would it be safe to boost the Renesis with the compression at 10:1?=20 =20 Where are you picking up the water for the water cooling of the turbo? =20 Does anyone have any good pictures of the installation that shows these things?=20 =20 B2 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:53 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Rich, =20 A load cell was installed on one side of the engine mount to measure torque. HP was calculated from the torque and the RPM. Most installations with a Renesis engine appear to be using a higher gear ratio than the 2.18:1 ratio of the reduction drives that I have. This lowers the limit the of engine RPM that I am able to achieve with a prop suitable for flight. =20 The HP required to turn the prop at a given static RPM does not change if the atmospheric conditions haven't changed. At the highest MAP of 21.5" shown on the chart for the NA 13B, the 13B HP is very close to the HP of the Renesis at that same MAP. The test data on the chart was generated as a first pass at assessing the suitability of turbocharging the Renesis compared to the 13B engine. None of the configurations should be considered to be optimized. =20 =20 Steve Boese RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of argoldman@aol.com [argoldman@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 2:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold I had assumed that these were dynamometer results. By what method did you ascertain the HP listed? =09 Interesting results. If the blades stalled (overpowered) at such a low RPM would it be correct to assume that at that RPM the engine was producing more power than the non Renesis engines at the same RPM with the same prop??? =09 I am so confused... interested also in perhaps turboing the renesis in the future?? =09 Please help =09 Rich =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Steven W. Boese =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:55 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold Bobby, =20 I honestly don't know what the exhaust sound was like. The control panel for the test stand is on the opposite side from the exhaust outlet. Also, at RPM above 5200, the 3 blade Warp Drive prop was stalled and the prop noise was just deafening. I could feel what seemed to be ground vibrations in my feet so testing higher power levels was disconcerting. At RPM below 5200, the noise was similar to having the GM diesel truck muffler on the NA 13B. =20 Steve =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bobby J. Hughes [bhughes@qnsi.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold Steve, =20 How did it sound without a muffler? I removed my belly muffler for a speed run and it was not tolerable in the cockpit. Only picked up 1-2 mph so the muffler is back on. =20 Bobby =20 =20 =20 --=20 Best Regards, Dale_R Cozy MKIV #497 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CDECFE.FCC265C5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thomas,

 

I’m surprised they discuss compressor surge. I guess the pulley = ratio must be sized to avoid WOT and high pressure ratios with low HP/ = airflow? I don’t understand. Apparently centrifugal SC’s = have the same concern. Positive displacement SC’s are not subject = to surge but the SC is downstream of the throttle body. =

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Thomas Giddings
Sent: Sunday, January 06, = 2013 8:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold

 

Bill and = all: Here is a little info you Renesis guys may find interesting if you = are thinking of a turbo.Here is the = link.http://www.tracmac.com.au/products1.html

KIND = REGARDS

Thomas = Giddings

727 858 = 1772

&nbs= p;

 

 

On = Jan 5, 2013, at 1:59 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote:



Da= le,

Th= at diverter works like a charm!  The port that Bobby has plugged, I = use to supply oil to the PSRU.  The one he has a pressure sender in = is the one I would put a “T” in to supply the = turbo.

&n= bsp;

Th= anks for making a great product!

&n= bsp;

Bi= ll

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Dale_R
Sent: Saturday, January = 05, 2013 1:23 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

 

Bill, =

   One solution is to use a remote oil filter diverter = such as the one I make.  It offers 3 "clean-oil" ports = that can be used for either sensors (pressure, temp) or oil feeds.  =

   The attached photo shows the third port unused and = plugged (photo courtesy of Bobby Hughes)

Best = regards,
Dale_R
COZY MkIV #04


On 1/4/2013 8:44 AM, Bill = Bradburry wrote:

Am= I wrong?  I don’t think that there is a stock turbo oil = source and return on the Renesis?  It is not factory turboed.  =

&n= bsp;

Bi= ll B

&n= bsp;

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, January 04, = 2013 9:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold

 

Stock = turbo oil source on top of front iron, stock turbo oil return on the = front cover/iron.

Dont boost 10:1. Get low compression rotors. = Even with intercooling, your turbo will increase your intake air temp = very significantly, and eat into detonation margins. It only takes a few = seconds to destroy your apex seals.. quicker than you can detect and = react.



On 1/3/2013 11:22 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote:

Ho= w are the folks with turbos handling the plumbing?  Where are you = picking up the pressurized oil and where/how do you return the oil to = the crankcase?  I read in the install instructions that the oil = drain line should be one inch in diameter, return above oil level in the = crankcase, and have no traps in it.  That doesn’t seem = possible with the rotary?? How are you doing it? =

&n= bsp;

Ho= w far would it be safe to boost the Renesis with the compression at = 10:1?

&n= bsp;

Wh= ere are you picking up the water for the water cooling of the = turbo?

&n= bsp;

Do= es anyone have any good pictures of the installation that shows these = things?

&n= bsp;

B2=

&n= bsp;

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese
Sent: Thursday, = January 03, 2013 5:53 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

 

Rich,=

 

A load cell = was installed on one side of the engine mount to measure torque.  = HP was calculated from the torque and the RPM.  Most installations = with a Renesis engine appear to be using a higher gear ratio than the = 2.18:1 ratio of the reduction drives that I have.  This lowers the = limit the of engine RPM that I am able to achieve with a prop = suitable for flight.

 

The HP = required to turn the prop at a given static RPM does not change if the = atmospheric conditions haven't changed.  At the highest MAP of = 21.5" shown on the chart for the NA 13B, the 13B HP is very close = to the HP of the Renesis at that same MAP.  The test data on the = chart was generated as a first pass at assessing the suitability of = turbocharging the Renesis compared to the 13B = engine.  None of the configurations should be = considered to be optimized.  =

 

Steve = Boese

RV6A, 1986 = 13B NA, RD1A, EC2

  =    

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of argoldman@aol.com [argoldman@aol.com]
Sent: = Thursday, January 03, 2013 2:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

I had = assumed that these were dynamometer results. By what method did you = ascertain the HP listed?

Interesting results. If the blades = stalled (overpowered) at such a low RPM would it be correct to assume = that at that RPM the engine was producing more power than the non = Renesis engines at the same RPM with the same prop???

I am so = confused... interested also in perhaps turboing the renesis in the = future??

Please help

Rich

 =

 =

 =

-----Orig= inal Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:55 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = turbo manifold

Bobby,

 

I honestly = don't know what the exhaust sound was like.  The control panel for = the test stand is on the opposite side from the exhaust outlet.  = Also, at RPM above 5200, the 3 blade Warp Drive prop was stalled = and the prop noise was just deafening.  I could feel what = seemed to be ground vibrations in my feet so testing higher power = levels was disconcerting.  At RPM below 5200, the noise was similar = to having the GM diesel truck muffler on the NA = 13B.

 

Steve=

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bobby J. = Hughes [bhughes@qnsi.net]
Sent: Thursday, = January 03, 2013 1:33 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

Steve,

 

How did it sound without a muffler? I removed my belly muffler for a = speed run and it was not tolerable in the cockpit. Only picked up 1-2 = mph so the muffler is back on.

 

Bobby

 

 

 





-- =

Best =
Regards,
Dale_R
Cozy MKIV =
#497

 

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