X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [66.219.56.245] (HELO mail.qnsi.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 6.0.1) with ESMTP id 5995316 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:00:24 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.219.56.245; envelope-from=bhughes@qnsi.net Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Return-Receipt-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CDEA9C.E7F419B5" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold Disposition-Notification-To: "Bobby J. Hughes" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 10:59:48 -0600 Message-ID: <74120FDE88CAFE4DBDA8814BCE20A3F34BA52D@qnsi-mail.qnsi.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: thread-topic: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold thread-index: Ac3qknJcIjYklAX1T3q+rye0xEqXzwABXUNw References: From: "Bobby J. Hughes" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CDEA9C.E7F419B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, =20 The rear iron housing feed is not drilled but can be. Mine was tapped and plugged during assembly. You could also feed from the oil galley at or below the filter pad. Might be able to use the stock oil pressure sender port. Not sure about the return with a stock oil pan. I have a deep pan and can keep 4.5 quarts below the oil return fitting in both climb and decent attitudes. I added and plugged an oil return last year in case I decide to swap out the super charger for a turbo. I think you can safely boost the renesis 10:1 rotors with 3-4 pounds as long as your intake charge is cooled and you don't have a lean fuel condition. I run 38-40" MP for takeoff and initial climb. No intercooler but I do use water injection for a safety margin.=20 =20 The table below may contain errors and is a work in progress. I believe an effective turbo system would need to be capable of producing 6-7 pounds to provide enough exhaust flow at altitudes up to 18K. The turbo surge line becomes a problem with cruise rpm and higher pressure ratios. An intercooler appears to be necessary. I used a Texas summer OAT of 100F as a starting point for calculating the intake temperature.=20 =20 Bobby=20 =20 Prop RPM Engine RPM Renesis HP @ standard day 4 psi Boost HP=20 HP @ 0' HP @ 8,000' HP @ 10,000' HP @ 18,000' =09 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =09 1700 4845 140 38.0 178 135 125 82 Estimate 10 HP per pound of air.=20 2000 5700 175 47.6 223 169 156 103 =09 2500 7125 215 58.5 274 208 192 126 =09 Pressure Ratio=20 =20 =20 =20 1.36 1.5 1.55 1.79 Assumes 1psi pressure drop on intake prior to turbo for filter Compressor Eff =20 =20 =20 0.65 0.65 0.65 0.65 =09 Standard Lapse Est OAT =20 =20 =20 100 72 65 37 =09 Intake Temp @ 65%=20 =20 =20 =20 173.3 164.7 163.5 163.1 Tout =3D Tamb + (Tamb * (-1 + PR0.263)) / comp efficiency Temp Increase =20 =20 =20 73.3 92.7 98.5 126.1 =09 =09 Temperature Adjusted Net HP =09 1700 4845 140 38 160.67 118.53 108.25 65.49 1%per 10F =3D hp loss with air temperature rise 2000 5700 175 47.6 205.27 153.01 139.65 86.29 =09 2500 7125 215 58.5 256.17 191.53 175.65 109.69 =09 =20 =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:44 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Am I wrong? I don't think that there is a stock turbo oil source and return on the Renesis? It is not factory turboed. =20 =20 Bill B =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 9:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Stock turbo oil source on top of front iron, stock turbo oil return on the front cover/iron.=20 Dont boost 10:1. Get low compression rotors. Even with intercooling, your turbo will increase your intake air temp very significantly, and eat into detonation margins. It only takes a few seconds to destroy your apex seals.. quicker than you can detect and react.=20 On 1/3/2013 11:22 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: How are the folks with turbos handling the plumbing? Where are you picking up the pressurized oil and where/how do you return the oil to the crankcase? I read in the install instructions that the oil drain line should be one inch in diameter, return above oil level in the crankcase, and have no traps in it. That doesn't seem possible with the rotary?? How are you doing it?=20 =20 How far would it be safe to boost the Renesis with the compression at 10:1?=20 =20 Where are you picking up the water for the water cooling of the turbo? =20 Does anyone have any good pictures of the installation that shows these things?=20 =20 B2 =20 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 5:53 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold =20 Rich, =20 A load cell was installed on one side of the engine mount to measure torque. HP was calculated from the torque and the RPM. Most installations with a Renesis engine appear to be using a higher gear ratio than the 2.18:1 ratio of the reduction drives that I have. This lowers the limit the of engine RPM that I am able to achieve with a prop suitable for flight. =20 The HP required to turn the prop at a given static RPM does not change if the atmospheric conditions haven't changed. At the highest MAP of 21.5" shown on the chart for the NA 13B, the 13B HP is very close to the HP of the Renesis at that same MAP. The test data on the chart was generated as a first pass at assessing the suitability of turbocharging the Renesis compared to the 13B engine. None of the configurations should be considered to be optimized. =20 =20 Steve Boese RV6A, 1986 13B NA, RD1A, EC2 =20 =09 ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of argoldman@aol.com [argoldman@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 2:43 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold I had assumed that these were dynamometer results. By what method did you ascertain the HP listed? =09 Interesting results. If the blades stalled (overpowered) at such a low RPM would it be correct to assume that at that RPM the engine was producing more power than the non Renesis engines at the same RPM with the same prop??? =09 I am so confused... interested also in perhaps turboing the renesis in the future?? =09 Please help =09 Rich =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Steven W. Boese To: Rotary motors in aircraft =20 Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:55 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold Bobby, =20 I honestly don't know what the exhaust sound was like. The control panel for the test stand is on the opposite side from the exhaust outlet. Also, at RPM above 5200, the 3 blade Warp Drive prop was stalled and the prop noise was just deafening. I could feel what seemed to be ground vibrations in my feet so testing higher power levels was disconcerting. At RPM below 5200, the noise was similar to having the GM diesel truck muffler on the NA 13B. =20 Steve ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bobby J. Hughes [bhughes@qnsi.net] Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2013 1:33 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold Steve, =20 How did it sound without a muffler? I removed my belly muffler for a speed run and it was not tolerable in the cockpit. Only picked up 1-2 mph so the muffler is back on. =20 Bobby =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CDEA9C.E7F419B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,

 

The rear iron housing feed is not drilled but can be. Mine was tapped = and plugged during assembly. You could also feed from the oil galley at = or below the filter pad. Might be able to use the stock oil pressure = sender port. Not sure about the return with a stock oil pan. I have a = deep pan and can keep 4.5 quarts below the oil return fitting in both = climb and decent attitudes. I added and plugged an oil return last year = in case I decide to swap out the super charger for a turbo. I think you = can safely boost the renesis 10:1 rotors with 3-4 pounds as long as your = intake charge is cooled and you don’t have a lean fuel condition. = I run 38-40” MP for takeoff and initial climb. No intercooler but = I do use water injection for a safety margin.

 

The table below may contain errors and is a work in progress. I = believe an effective turbo system would need to be capable of producing = 6-7 pounds to provide enough exhaust flow at altitudes up to 18K. The = turbo surge line becomes a problem with cruise rpm and higher pressure = ratios. An intercooler appears to be necessary. I used a Texas summer = OAT of 100F as a starting point for calculating the intake temperature. =

 

Bobby

 

Prop RPM

Engine RPM

Renesis HP @ standard day

4 psi Boost HP

HP @ 0'

HP @ 8,000'

HP @ 10,000'

HP @ 18,000'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1700

4845

140

38.0

178

135

125

82

Estimate 10 HP per pound of air.

2000

5700

175

47.6

223

169

156

103

2500

7125

215

58.5

274

208

192

126

Pressure Ratio

 

 

 

1.36

1.5

1.55

1.79

Assumes 1psi pressure drop on intake prior to turbo for = filter

Compressor Eff

 

 

 

0.65

0.65

0.65

0.65

Standard Lapse Est OAT

 

 

 

100

72

65

37

Intake Temp @ 65%

 

 

 

173.3

164.7

163.5

163.1

Tout =3D Tamb + (Tamb * (-1 + PR0.263)) / comp = efficiency

Temp Increase

 

 

 

73.3

92.7

98.5

126.1

Temperature Adjusted Net  HP

1700

4845

140

38

160.67

118.53

108.25

65.49

1%per 10F =3D hp loss with air temperature = rise

2000

5700

175

47.6

205.27

153.01

139.65

86.29

2500

7125

215

58.5

256.17

191.53

175.65

109.69

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry
Sent: Friday, January 04, = 2013 9:44 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold

 

Am= I wrong?  I don’t think that there is a stock turbo oil = source and return on the Renesis?  It is not factory turboed.  =

 

Bi= ll B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, January 04, = 2013 9:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: turbo manifold

 

Stock = turbo oil source on top of front iron, stock turbo oil return on the = front cover/iron.

Dont boost 10:1. Get low compression rotors. = Even with intercooling, your turbo will increase your intake air temp = very significantly, and eat into detonation margins. It only takes a few = seconds to destroy your apex seals.. quicker than you can detect and = react.



On 1/3/2013 11:22 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote:

Ho= w are the folks with turbos handling the plumbing?  Where are you = picking up the pressurized oil and where/how do you return the oil to = the crankcase?  I read in the install instructions that the oil = drain line should be one inch in diameter, return above oil level in the = crankcase, and have no traps in it.  That doesn’t seem = possible with the rotary?? How are you doing it? =

&n= bsp;

Ho= w far would it be safe to boost the Renesis with the compression at = 10:1?

&n= bsp;

Wh= ere are you picking up the water for the water cooling of the = turbo?

&n= bsp;

Do= es anyone have any good pictures of the installation that shows these = things?

&n= bsp;

B2=

&n= bsp;

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironlin= e.net] On Behalf Of Steven W. Boese
Sent: Thursday, = January 03, 2013 5:53 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

 

Rich,=

 

A load cell = was installed on one side of the engine mount to measure torque.  = HP was calculated from the torque and the RPM.  Most installations = with a Renesis engine appear to be using a higher gear ratio than the = 2.18:1 ratio of the reduction drives that I have.  This lowers the = limit the of engine RPM that I am able to achieve with a prop = suitable for flight.

 

The HP = required to turn the prop at a given static RPM does not change if the = atmospheric conditions haven't changed.  At the highest MAP of = 21.5" shown on the chart for the NA 13B, the 13B HP is very close = to the HP of the Renesis at that same MAP.  The test data on the = chart was generated as a first pass at assessing the suitability of = turbocharging the Renesis compared to the 13B = engine.  None of the configurations should be = considered to be optimized.  =

 

Steve = Boese

RV6A, 1986 = 13B NA, RD1A, EC2

  =    

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of argoldman@aol.com [argoldman@aol.com]
Sent: = Thursday, January 03, 2013 2:43 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

I had = assumed that these were dynamometer results. By what method did you = ascertain the HP listed?

Interesting results. If the blades = stalled (overpowered) at such a low RPM would it be correct to assume = that at that RPM the engine was producing more power than the non = Renesis engines at the same RPM with the same prop???

I am so = confused... interested also in perhaps turboing the renesis in the = future??

Please help

Rich

 =

 =

 =

-----Orig= inal Message-----
From: Steven W. Boese <SBoese@uwyo.edu>
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent: Thu, Jan 3, 2013 2:55 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = turbo manifold

Bobby,

 

I honestly = don't know what the exhaust sound was like.  The control panel for = the test stand is on the opposite side from the exhaust outlet.  = Also, at RPM above 5200, the 3 blade Warp = Drive prop = was stalled and the prop noise was just deafening.  I could = feel what seemed to be ground vibrations in my feet so testing = higher power levels was disconcerting.  At RPM below 5200, the = noise was similar to having the GM diesel truck muffler on the NA = 13B.

 

Steve=

From:= = Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] on behalf of Bobby J. = Hughes [bhughes@qnsi.net]
Sent: Thursday, = January 03, 2013 1:33 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: turbo = manifold

Steve,

 

How did it sound without a muffler? I removed my belly muffler for a = speed run and it was not tolerable in the cockpit. Only picked up 1-2 = mph so the muffler is back on.

 

Bobby

 

 

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01CDEA9C.E7F419B5--